Jump Point Bombs

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Are Jump Point Bombs Cheesey?

Heck No, they're fair and flavorful! Advanced Races Rule!
16
30%
Swiss & Brie; It's a cheap tactic - should be banned.
15
28%
Has it's place, but may need to be re-thought.
22
42%
 
Total votes: 53
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animus
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Jump Point Bombs

Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:36 am

I'm not sure I like the idea of dropping a jump point on an unsuspecting ship doing 6AD triple damage. It seems a little cheesey, what do you guys think? Good rule or no?
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Postby Geekybiker » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:39 am

AJP needs to scatter or do no damage.
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Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:45 am

Geekybiker wrote:AJP needs to scatter or do no damage.
I think this is right. I think a Jump Point should be a hazard, not a weapon.
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Postby Achiles » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:15 am

It should probably be eliminated altogether. Not so much for its effectiveness but the unrealistic effects it has on players tactics. Maybe it would be ok if they added a negative side. What if they made every ship roll to avoid accidently colliding with other ships. I mean if you jump in the middle of a bunch of ships your running a huge risk of hitting someone. All ships that are hit by the AJP Bomb roll a CQ8 check to avoid a collision. The ship jumping in rolls a CQ8 check for each ship. If both ships fail they have collided in the confusion. Move them towards each other and treat as a ramming action.
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Postby Mr. Eddy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:34 am

no 1 likes a sharlin poping up rite behinde u doing 6ad at triple damage and then opening up all its front guns! its cheese!! :shock:
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Postby demonllamma » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:21 am

Has anyone actually had this one used against them? Unless you are making a fleet expressly to do this (a fleet of nothing but Torothas?) it is not going to have that much of an impact. Even if they do design a fleet like this, what happens when the game is rolled up and it turnes out to be something without jumping? The times that I have used this in games, it has done meagre damage, and of the two times I have had it used against me, one did a whopping 9 damage to a sharlin, the other, they managed to almost kill two orbital platforms. Whoopdee-friggin-doo. There are two real reasons for this.

1) Yes there are 6AD of triple damage that still have to hit, with no AP. The most likely target for these will be your large ships, those that pose the biggest threat. Most of those ships are going to have a 6 hull. That makes one hit (statistically).....oohhh....I am so scared..... even if it is hull 5, that makes out for six damage (as likely as not). Yes, there is the chance of doing more damage, and even of criticals, but if you are going to be concerned about something that improbable, you are being overly defensive.

2) The biggest issue is whether or not the 6AD TD is worth the trade off of not having it on the board and of bringing it on on top of the enemy fleet. Everything with AJP has good range on a main weapon (shadow omega, Victory, anything but a Torotha for the Minbari, etc). I would rather open up that JP behind the enemy, away from thier big scary guns and hit them from well behind. Is the relatively small return of a handfull of damage worth the trade off of the ships guns?

The actual damage done by a JP hitting someone is unimpressive. The biggest fear is that 'what if I get hit by a big critical?' Well, the answer to that is "It will suck," but its going to suck whether you get if from a JP or the guns of a ship. There are trade offs for using this tactic. Most notably, losing the firepower of the ship for at least a round. Really, the whole JP bomb is more of a JP firecracker, and in all reality, it is one of the crappy safe and sane ones that whisle and throw sparks. That being said, I will agree that it is a fairly cheesy tactic, but does it really qualify as cheese when it is wholly unimpresive?
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:15 am

You're right, you still have to hit with those AD. Ships of 5 or 6 Hull are not really afraid of this tactic. However, here's what I've see as well....

I've seen three White Stars drop these things on a rather large group of fighters. Over a 50 percent casualty rate, and the dice rolling was fairly average; it was just the way he grouped them.

I've seen a Sharoos drop one in the middle of a couple of squadrons of Raid/Skirmish vessels. Then he jumped out in the middle and just laid waste to what was left. (That was truly the ugliest AJP play I have yet seen) The ugly part was watching the surrounding ships fail almost every single one of their stealth rolls.

I've seen a 5 pt War game with a Victory, Sharlin and 9 White stars. 5 AJP Bombs got dropped on the enemy. That was not pretty.

My point is that the JP Bomb, when targeted properly is as effective as you want it to be. It can easily be abused given the right scenario settings.
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Postby Target » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:57 am

My biggest gripe about AJP is that difference between it normal JP is huge.
Never fails, can shoot when you emerge compared can't shoot, auto scatter 2d6.
My group places JP's at start of the movement phase, ships move then damage is assigned and scatter is less and CQ to see if you can fire. A cunning player can force the enemy to change is battleplans. At the moment it really is total cheese and way out of balance.
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Postby Target » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:10 am

demonllamma wrote:Has anyone actually had this one used against them? Unless you are making a fleet expressly to do this (a fleet of nothing but Torothas?) it is not going to have that much of an impact. Even if they do design a fleet like this, what happens when the game is rolled up and it turnes out to be something without jumping? The times that I have used this in games, it has done meagre damage, and of the two times I have had it used against me, one did a whopping 9 damage to a sharlin, the other, they managed to almost kill two orbital platforms. Whoopdee-friggin-doo. There are two real reasons for this.

1) Yes there are 6AD of triple damage that still have to hit, with no AP. The most likely target for these will be your large ships, those that pose the biggest threat. Most of those ships are going to have a 6 hull. That makes one hit (statistically).....oohhh....I am so scared..... even if it is hull 5, that makes out for six damage (as likely as not). Yes, there is the chance of doing more damage, and even of criticals, but if you are going to be concerned about something that improbable, you are being overly defensive.

2) The biggest issue is whether or not the 6AD TD is worth the trade off of not having it on the board and of bringing it on on top of the enemy fleet. Everything with AJP has good range on a main weapon (shadow omega, Victory, anything but a Torotha for the Minbari, etc). I would rather open up that JP behind the enemy, away from thier big scary guns and hit them from well behind. Is the relatively small return of a handfull of damage worth the trade off of the ships guns?

The actual damage done by a JP hitting someone is unimpressive. The biggest fear is that 'what if I get hit by a big critical?' Well, the answer to that is "It will suck," but its going to suck whether you get if from a JP or the guns of a ship. There are trade offs for using this tactic. Most notably, losing the firepower of the ship for at least a round. Really, the whole JP bomb is more of a JP firecracker, and in all reality, it is one of the crappy safe and sane ones that whisle and throw sparks. That being said, I will agree that it is a fairly cheesy tactic, but does it really qualify as cheese when it is wholly unimpresive?
The biggest problem is Mimbari targeting Hull 4 Scouts before they can do anything. Place your corvan next thing it's dead not really balanced. Nothing actually has to come out, or even some fighters come out, and the 2nd torotha opens another JP the next turn and then there are 2 JP's that ships can come through and probably killed another scout. Just a little much
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Postby markn » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:13 am

As a Narn player I have to put up with it on a regular basis from white stars. The ISA uses it to target my energy mine ships at lower levels and it usually almost kills one. It really is cheese. However, I think the tactic should remain - but changed. Perhaps moved 1d6 forward or backward. Perhaps a crew quality check. It happened in the show and so it should remain but it should be riskier or less of a sure thing.
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:16 am

Actually, I would be quite happy with a CQ check to place the marker without drift. If you fail then the marker drift 1d6 inches in a random direction. However, you still gain the rest of the benefits of your AJP.
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Postby Reaverman » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:28 am

I suppose the only way out of this is either space your fleet out properly, so that at tops, once ship at most can be hit!

Or,

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Postby Rodders » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:52 am

i feel that it has its place and only players who suffer this kind of attack often think this is cheese but it does need to be looked at
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Postby Low Roller 1-1 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:07 am

I have no real problem with it but we have banned it in friendly games, but it is a vailid tourney weapon - in a real fight you use every thing at your disposal.

But like it has been said some times it's devistating and others it sratches the paint work :lol:
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error

Postby Elessar » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:22 am

I red what seems to me a mistake
I've seen a Sharoos drop one in the middle of a couple of squadrons of Raid/Skirmish vessels. Then he jumped out in the middle and just laid waste to what was left. (That was truly the ugliest AJP play I have yet seen) The ugly part was watching the surrounding ships fail almost every single one of their stealth rolls.
A ship who openend AJP can't open another before 3 turns play

I am playing AJP and I agree thay are not very dangerous but they are a basic strategy for fast mouving armies

The space superiority created by fast whitestars or Vorlon and Minbari ships is the basic way for them to "play"
Yes they can cause damages but if they rely on this "AJP tactic" they will mostly loose their fights
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Postby Triggy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:37 am

I have two issues with AJP bombs:

Firstly alhtough jump points have been seen as weapons in the show (twice - ever! and one of those was with the ship already in realspace) they require a detailed knowledge of the area and having the enemy exactly where you want them as a pre-arranged target. Now this simply doesn't happen in 99% of all battles (only ambushes really). In games people tend to use the jump point bomb in a majority of straight battles.

Secondly, the rules are still not quite right regarding their accuracy. Yes, they should be able to open jump points and come out firing but why with zero scatter? Again, only if they have detailed knowledge of the battlefield beforehand (i.e. an ambush or defensive battle). Otherwise, the jump point should scatter 2d6 as usual in my opinion (you still get all the other benefits, it's just not a weapon anymore). Simple change with no loss in functionality.
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Postby Greg Smith » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:43 am

I use it in tourneys and have had it used against me. It is a valid tactic IMHO, but it splits your fleet. You immediately drop a ship right in the middle of the enemy fleet. Also it doesn't really work against ships with high hull or fighters.

It is getting a small fix in Armageddon. But probably not enough for people who hate it.
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ok

Postby Elessar » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:10 am

Thanks Greg

We shall all wait a few more monthes
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Postby Locutus9956 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:02 am

Ive never really used it much, the one time I DID use it heavily was fighting drazi and I jumped them with a bunch of Totothas on top of their Darkhawks. To say the results were unspectacular would be something of an understatement.

I DID win the game but frankly it was the Torothas themselves who did the damage not the jump points.

AJPs CAN do damage but its no more effective than any other tactic, and in the case of the minbari it requires you to come in at close range (which reduces the effectiveness of your stealth and negates some of the usual huge range advantage, and as greg points out it splits your fleet up allowing the enemy to focus on one part.

As for 'taking out a large amount of fighters, if you know your opponent has AJP ships in hyperspace and clump up your fighters like that frankly you DESERVE to get jump bombed (incidentally fighters CAN dodge jump points as far as I know so tend to do ok anyway) (and while we're at it how is that any cheesier than Narns emimining the lot of them to oblivion anyway?).

Theyre a bit more useful when used with Vorlons or ISA but to be honests at the moment the Vorlons need all the help they can get and ISA arent really made any nastier for their use of them.

Theyre a perfectly legitimate tactic imho and if you want to risk it go ahead. Theyre NOT the davastating game winner people make them out to be (especially if you just spread your fleet out a little).
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Re: error

Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:16 pm

Elessar wrote:I red what seems to me a mistake
I've seen a Sharoos drop one in the middle of a couple of squadrons of Raid/Skirmish vessels. Then he jumped out in the middle and just laid waste to what was left. (That was truly the ugliest AJP play I have yet seen) The ugly part was watching the surrounding ships fail almost every single one of their stealth rolls.
A ship who openend AJP can't open another before 3 turns play

I am playing AJP and I agree thay are not very dangerous but they are a basic strategy for fast mouving armies

The space superiority created by fast whitestars or Vorlon and Minbari ships is the basic way for them to "play"
Yes they can cause damages but if they rely on this "AJP tactic" they will mostly loose their fights
The Sharoos did not open two jump points. It opened the one that damaged all those poor ship, then he came out of that same AJP and went to town with all of his Neutron Lasers. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

And just to make sure my position is clear. I really don't have a problem with the jump point bomb. As with everything else, if you know what you are facing you can mitigate the damage.
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