Advanced Jump Point

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Is the rules for advanced jump point as written in the rule book to be used as a weapon or as a oops you got to close?

Yes--Meant as a weapon
21
51%
No--JP and AJP are NOT meant as a true weapon
19
46%
I don't know
1
2%
 
Total votes: 41
Mmurphy
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Advanced Jump Point

Postby Mmurphy » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:41 am

A friend of mine and I are in a small argument. I am looking to you to help settle the augument.

When the designers of the game created the rules for jump point and advanced jump point, did they make them into a weapon system or as an auxilary system?

I say the jump point and advance jump point causing damage to the ships near by is deliberately written in the rule book to be used as an offensive weapon and that it is part of the weapon payload ships that have JP and AJP should consider using.

He says that JP and AJP are just part of the game and the designer(s) of the game did not intend them to be used as offensive weapons as much as they are.

This is not a poll on whether JP and AJP should or should not be allowed, but only if JP and AJP were specificly designed as a weapon in the game system.

Thanks,

{edit to clarify my question}
Last edited by Mmurphy on Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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demonllamma
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Postby demonllamma » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:51 am

You may want to reword your poll because right now the answer is unequivocally yes. You are asking an A or B question with yes or no answers. those don't mesh up too well.

IMO the AJP rules allow for the offense of use of a jump point, and realistically the standard jump point can be of offense of military use, with luck.

I will vote if the answers are changed.
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Postby Mmurphy » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:20 am

I reworded my question as best as I am able. I hope that helps.
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:54 am

I would say if you want to know if JP and AJP are taken into account as weapons you should ask the game designers, but since it causes damage, any player would be foolish not to at least consider using it in a game if the scenario permits.

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Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:15 am

By all means, use them as weapons. . .
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demonllamma
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Postby demonllamma » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:41 am

If they were not intended to be used as weapons, they would not do damage.
If you could somehow use the mighty hand of God to smite your opposing fleet, you would do it. How is using the energy released by tearing a hole in space-time to kill your enemies wrong?
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Postby Phoenixx » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:05 am

Because it is a completely riskless way to cripple your enemies fleet. It is simply not fair in game terms. A Sharlin jumping behind your lines and firing from where you can't fire back (and without you being able to react to it) is bad enough... It doesn't have to do damge just by appearing.

Yes, it is allowed and can be done, but it does not help the game nor does it capture the feeling of the show (it is only done once; why don't the do it every time, if it is such a succesful tactic?).

My suggestion would be a Crew Quality check (a hard one; 9?), otherwise the AJD does no damage. This would help a little with that problem.
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Postby E-Mines Hurt » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:53 am

the AJP should deviate as well, not by 2d6, but by either 1d2 or 2d6-CQ or something like that, also with some directional control (possibly the ability to increase or lower the d6 for direction by 1 after the roll). The main advantage of the AJP should be the ship arriving where it should be and be able to fire right away. It should also be smaller e.g. 2" instead of 4" radius.
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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:07 pm

Since the Minbari use it in In the Beginning, the game replicates that.

Remember that it is not allowed in all scenarios. Its use has been restricted in the new tournament list. Jumping a Sharlin in the middle of an enemy formation may not the best use of your ship.
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Postby Rodders » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:32 pm

probably not meant as a true weapon but a wiley admirial wil have this trick up his sleeve just in case................
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Postby Shadowfax » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:06 pm

A good way to put the advanced jump point bomb in check is to require a crew quality checks for each ship it could do damage to. If the crew quality check is failed no damage can be dealt to that individual ship.
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Postby tamcoan » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:25 pm

I've never seen the AJP used in any other form other than as a weapon. Any opponent I've played who has it avaliable has always used it as a "first strike" against my fleet. With that said, it's a powerful attack. One that you can deal with easy enough though if you have it in mind beforehand that he/she will try it.
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Postby TrueCentauri » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:46 pm

I think AJP is far more a weapon in the game than in the show.

The destruction of EA ships by the black star in in the beginning is a result of a minbari flyer luring ships to a predetermined position (just as Sheridans says). When the order to halt is given it is too late.

The other jump point destruction, as far as I know is in A call to arms. And this doesn't count because this is a jump point from normal to hyperspace.

So, allthough advanced jump engines are exact, this doesn't mean that ships can enter anyplace anytime from hyperspace to realspace (contrary to the game) It can enter on a predetermined position, and arrange that ships are around.

Allthough more than one thread has been used to discuss AJP, I am not sure how much this disturbs balance. But simply AJP at will at any position seems too bold.

I would suggest another rule. I haven't tried this yet, and maybe it isn't usefull.

When keeping ships in hyperspace, use a map of the table. Before movement, ships in hyperspace have to give the special order to jump to normal space (I am not sure if it is necessary to tell, or simply write down is sufficient). Players have to put on the map the position where the ship enters. After movement phase is complete for the ships on the board, the ships jumping into normal space form the jump points on the location as was written on the map (and may face the direction they choose). Normal jump points deviate according to the rules, AJPs not.

This rule might turn complex, but the nice thing is that the tactical challenge increase, and that you need to predict the movement of the enemy ships to AJP them efficiently (and if your enemy feels sour that he was AJPed you can tell him that he should have taken a less predictable route).

What do you guys think of this rule? As a said, I haven't playtested this yet.
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Postby LtLeonJonson » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:25 am

welll, it should work, but i feel that certain player would object due to the fact it has a way to counter it and so stop them from winning as easily, now i know i won't be me or all of us here.

It does sound nice, after all you plan for the worse, hope for the best and you end up vaguely even in these types of games.
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Postby demonllamma » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:48 am

Really it isn't that much damage, and you tend to put yourself at a disadvantage when you use it. I play Minbari and I find that its not worth my while to use it. I can generally do more damage with my ships on the table, and they don't have to end up so close. Perhaps with the Torotha frigates it would be a worthwhile idea, because they lack any real long-range weaponry. I have had it used against me a number of times and it has never done any significant amount of damage. My opponent usually throws it at whatever my biggest ship and ends up getting a half-dozen damage or so, which in all honesty doesn't do much.
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copycat

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:04 am

Thanks Mmurphy
You opened the same post as me and everyone is coming to yours !!!
:-)

I can t find sure answer about Jump Points and ships using it

In the rules you open JP turn X
You can enter your ships turn X+1, +2 or +3

So, the ship opening it can stay out of the way leaving others fighting for it

I met a Vorlon player preparing a huge fleet of small transports using adv jump point as a weapon of mass damages

You can figure what is happening when 6 or 7 JP opens all in the middle of your ships

My only chance would be to prepare myself puting ships all far away from each other (and unable to defend) and trying to hunt down the one or two ships he put on "field" to win before reinforcements

My question : does a ship using jump point has an obligation to use it, to enter ?
I never saw in the game any ship opening a JP to let other s in but staying behind

Thanks for help
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Re: copycat

Postby lastbesthope » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:52 pm

Elessar wrote:In the rules you open JP turn X
You can enter your ships turn X+1, +2 or +3
Actually you can entyer Turn X+1, X+2. You can only hold a JP open for 3 turns including the one you open it on, and I don't think you can move through the JP the turn you open it.

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Postby prelude_to_war » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:01 pm

As a Minbari player I've used it. But - as it's been pointed out elsewhere - Minbari ships lose the benefits of stealth beyond 10" and the reach of their long ranged weapons.

Because of that, I rarely use it even though it is a legit weapon.
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Postby Nivad » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:21 pm

Whne ever I they to use jp/ajp as wepons they are useless.

I was just wondering, in the rules it does not spesify that they are atimatic hits and on that note wouldent stelth, dodge, intersepters, and other defencive stuff work
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Postby demonllamma » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:05 am

Nivad wrote:Whne ever I they to use jp/ajp as wepons they are useless.

I was just wondering, in the rules it does not spesify that they are atimatic hits and on that note wouldent stelth, dodge, intersepters, and other defencive stuff work
stealth doesn't work because the rules state that it suffers an attack, while stealth prevents attacking because of a failure to lock on, therefore, the stealth is bypassed. Interceptors say that "they may not be used against exploding ships or opening Jump Points." SFOS P7 I cannot find any reason for being unable to dodge a Jump Point attack, however I have never had this come up. There are easier ways to kill fighters.

On the other hand, my experience with JP as weapons, even the AJP, they are largely useless.
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