Concentrate all firepower Question

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Should it be changed

yes
8
28%
no
19
66%
maybe
2
7%
 
Total votes: 29
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leonpaul
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Concentrate all firepower Question

Postby leonpaul » Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:49 am

Just trying to find out if anyone else feels the same way i do about CAF i feel it should be a C.Q. Check of 8,because if you look at it this way its by far the best special action and you get it Automatically.But if you play as the EA or Narn to name but a few you cant Boresight and do CAF so their fore you get penalised
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Re: Concentrate all firepower Question

Postby lastbesthope » Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:03 am

leonpaul wrote:But if you play as the EA or Narn to name but a few you cant Boresight and do CAF so their fore you get penalised
1) I'm pretty sure other races have boresight weapons that suffer the same problem.

2) It is possible to boresight without turning and so allowing you to CAF, some are quite contrived but some are more viable than I had previously thought (Gravity well turns/orbiting being one of these)

3) You don't get 'penalised' as such it's just not such a big benefit, you don't like the action, don't use it. Also making it a CQ check based action won't improve the 'penalty' any.

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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:14 am

CaF! is already pretty badly penalised, your suggestion would only make it worse. If any changes were needed, it would be to make it easier to Boresight under CaF!, as you mention. But even so, speaking as primarily a Drazi player with a Boresight or two on every ship, I'd prefer it the way it is.

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Postby Pigeon Smythe » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:33 am

I cant think why EA would want to boresight and CAF anyway (they tend to get large amounts of fire from each arc)

I agree with Wulf the disadvantage to CAF is the limit of 1 arc. This is a huge disadvantage to some races Some fleets would lose huge amounts of firepower even if still shooting out of their main arc

And the EA can still get the equivalent of a CAF re-roll for their boresights with their scouts anyway - if they choose to, something only the drazi cannot do for their bores, as they have no scouts.

I think CAF works well as it is, it seems overpowered when Centauri of Whitestars do it to you, but is is not really that bad

On another note regarding CAF - from the Earth Minbari War book it states that you can with a character capable of giving two orders give 2 seperate CAF orders enabling CAF in two arcs, which makes Sheridan awesome in an Earth fleet as well.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:50 am

Pigeon Smythe wrote:And the EA can still get the equivalent of a CAF re-roll for their boresights with their scouts anyway - if they choose to, something only the drazi cannot do for their bores, as they have no scouts.
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Postby Rorschach » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:59 pm

Pigeon Smythe wrote:I cant think why EA would want to boresight and CAF anyway (they tend to get large amounts of fire from each arc)
Perhaps when they're still at long beam range, and the broesight is all that's in range? Or because the boresight is the primary damage dealer on the whole ship? Those initial trading shots can be crucial especially when facing Minbari or Centauri. And unless the enemy Admiral's been kindly dumb enough to line-up directly on you, they're going to get auto-rerolls, while you won't. Since most enemy Battle Choice are Hull6, the difference of rerolling what misses 4's and not rerolling is statistically significant.
So I can sure as hell see a scenario where EA would want Boresight and CF!
And the EA can still get the equivalent of a CAF re-roll for their boresights with their scouts anyway
Sure...if they sacrifice a Raid slot or two, AND hope for a 5+ Roll. Maybe regular CaF! should be a 5+? ;-)

If long range, full arc beam fleets (Minbari and Centauri) get to hold range on you, and CF! automatically every turn, its an ugly day. You'll lose significant ship power on the approach. And such a tactic is quite easily done in the bulk of standard scenarios. Not to mention those fleets are just as ugly at close ranges. Now if the other fleets were balanced better against them, or Boresights could CF! too, or CF! were harder to do, then things would be a bit more hunky dory.
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Postby Tredrick » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:14 pm

Wait, isn't boresight an arc of its own? Would that mean that if you lined up a boresight and CAFed, you could only fire the boresight?
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Postby Rorschach » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:19 pm

CF! only limits you to one *target*, not one arc.
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Postby Tredrick » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:22 pm

I knew I was getting somethign confused. Thanks.
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Postby emoadam » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:34 pm

Yeah i think that its a great rule. You have to remember, use it in the right circumstances. If you use CAF
(a) you can only target one ship
(b) no turns

this means you will only have 1 arc of firing, and if the ship moves out of the CAF then you are screwed to a rubbish arc
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Postby emoadam » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:42 pm

obviously centauri and minbari come out on top having long range weapons that can CAF and only fire one weapon anyway, since your so far back you get in the correct arc and they cant move away
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Postby lastbesthope » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:10 pm

Pigeon Smythe wrote:I agree with Wulf the disadvantage to CAF is the limit of 1 arc.
As mentioned above, the CAF limit is one target, not one arc. A target can be in up to 3 arcs (B, F & T OR B(a), A, & T) being the two ways of managing it, even with CAF.

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Postby emoadam » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:13 am

ok yeah if we count turret and boresight you can have 3 arcs max. But remember ranged weapons, and usually only the big long ranged guns are in to fire. i find that most the big ships have twin linked on the smaller guns so it doesnt matter
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Postby herdleader » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:52 pm

Since this thread is about CaF, I'll take this opportunity to ask a clarifaction.
If I CaF using a beam weapon, how often can I re-roll? Example: I fire a 4AD Beam needing to roll a 4 to hit. I roll a 3, 5, 5, 6. That's three hits. I re-roll the miss getting a 4. That makes four hits total. I then re-roll all 4 AD looking for 5s+. I roll 1, 1, 4, 6. Tha's one hit. Do I re-roll the three misses? There's a rule that says that you can only re-roll a miss once, that's why twin-linked weapons gain no benefit from CaF.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm

herdleader wrote:Since this thread is about CaF, I'll take this opportunity to ask a clarifaction.
If I CaF using a beam weapon, how often can I re-roll?
Like your Twin-Linked example, you may only roll for the first miss from a Beam. Therefore, with a 4 AD Beam, the maximum number of rerolls you could make would be 1 for each of the 4 dice that rolled a miss on the first roll.

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Postby Pigeon Smythe » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:33 pm

Just to make sure herdleader is clear on the point

the beam reroll only works for the initial attack dice roll only
(it can never be used on subsequent hit attempts with the beam)
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Postby Phoenixx » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:34 pm

As we play the game, you HAVE TO make a turn to use your boresight weapons. This is because boresight is a point-to-point-thing and the game is not using any kind of map with hex-fields or squares. So it is not really precise if you have a straight firing line or not. Because of this agreement we don't have any discussion about some parts of an inch. With this rule (which is not exactly an house rule but a very strict interpretation of the standard rules) the only chance of CaF is when shooting at immobile target you lined up at last round.

Apart from that you can`t use your scouts against Minbari, 'cause you will need your scouts to lower their stealth. So, I completly agree with Rorschach that at the moment Caf is an unfair advantage for Minbari and Centauri. They can re-roll there mainweapon while I can't (being Narn). In additon the have more/better beamweapons in the upper PLs. :x
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Postby emoadam » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:39 pm

We play boresight as, point to point, and the player will line up on a ship so you can draw a line between the two points. if the opposing ship moves then then boresight is lost. The only true way to get boresight on a ship with CAF is to blow the ships engines, or stay in the same spot uing All Stop!

Another way of doing it, is by making a marker for each ship with boresight, and place it on the board where the ship is exactly boresighted up to. then you can draw a straight line from the stem to the marker for boresight.
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Postby Phoenixx » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:49 pm

@emoadam: I think we both mean the same. The point is you can't boresight and CaF as long the other ship is not immobile (by any means) AND you lined up last round. Simply because the movement of miniatures is not precise enough. Even when someone place his ship right in front of your guns, he can always argue with you about fractions of an inch. And then you will have to use something stupid like rolling a dice to decide if the other ship is in the B-arc or not. That is why we made it clear that way.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:52 pm

Phoenixx wrote:As we play the game, you HAVE TO make a turn to use your boresight weapons.
Actually there are other ways, the obvious ones are firing on immobilised or stationary targets, firing on ships which don't turn when you were lined up along his axis last turn (the straight-line tailing situation), and using the gravity well of a planet to gain a free turn (specifically mentioned in the description in Book 1). I've yet to manage the gravity well solution, myself...

However, I have more than once managed a CAF! with a Boresight by pure coincidence. My opponent stopped a ship accidentally right in front of my ship, and I declared CAF!

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