Lonewolf conversions

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Silent Wolf
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Postby Silent Wolf » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:26 am

>>Oh, I totally agree that Kai are generally better than others, and the people Lone Wolf meets are probably above average - but he is also above average. Very few Kai achieve anything close to his level of mastery. In a 1st level game though, I fail to see why the Kai should be any better than the Sommerlund Knight of the Realm. The Kai is a novice who's barely tapped into his supernatural potential, while the Knight is likely a squire who's been training in combat as a youth, though not faced much real danger. I see no problem with the Knight being a better combatant, while the Kai has more varied abilities.<<

Based on what I have seen the Kai begin training at a very young age as well. Probably just as young as a knight. But by and large the earlier levels are about the only point I feel this should hold true. Otherwise, if a powerful knight was just as capable as a powerful Kai Lord then much of the storyline of the original Lone Wolf books would fail to make sense after the retrieval of the Sommerswerd. At least in my opinion anyway. Send the knights to deal with a crisis, rather then the one remaining lone Kai Lord. Lone Wolf, as a Kai Lord, was simply that much more capable then other characters of a comperable level of experience in other classes. I'm not saying that the Kai Lord Class should be more powerful, just that the others are far to able in comparison.


>>It's interesting that you mention the significantly greater abilities of the Kai Lord and Shianti mage. In my mind the cleric is more powerful than either of those classes. The barbarian is also a very useful combatant - likely stronger than any of those in the LW d20 book. But that's not really the point. You're right, story is the most important thing. But I actually feel that having the Kai be even with the other classes aids the story. It's far more interesting to have roleplay between a knight and a Kai Lord, for example, when they're matches for each other. The game's not supposed to be about the Kai Lord leading a bunch of characters on a quest, it's about all of those characters. Finally, I think that the Kai not being inherently stronger fits with the world. Their training is intense, and they don't become masters overnight. There are probably many more high-level Kai Lords than Sommerlund Knights, but that's because every Kai Lord is an inherently exceptional person, while only some of the knights (including the PCs) are, and a knight isn't going to face the constant danger except in times of war. Lone Wolf is very young and is level 5, probably higher than most Knights ever reach, so I don't see why the class itself should be boosted up.<<

The Kai Lord is capable of most of what a cleric is, as well as much of what a barbarian is based on the level of course. Faster then normal movement rates, psionics, healing, and a variety of weapons open to them. Many with bonuses to strike and damage based on what disciplines you have chosen. Thus to my mind the Kai Lord is a more capable class then either. However you are right, that isn't the point. Based on the material on which the game is based I see little evidence that the other classes manage, over time, to be as capable as the Kai Lord. Of course this is by design as the stories cast you as a Kai Lord. I just feel that to be true to the source material the classes available should have reflected that as well. The game books were not "mechanically balanced." I see no reason why the other classes need to be augmented to allow them to keep pace with the Kai over the course of development.

>>Okay, I'm rambling a bit. But I've always felt that it was a little weird that people think mechanically balanced games ruin the story of a setting. I think balance and story work together, and in general complement each other. Sometimes balance can't be achieved, but when it can I don't see the problem with it. <<

I don't see the problem with it when it does not dimninish a story, or the mystique of a class based on another body of work. In this instance forcing this balance between classes does both. It rather is a slap in the face of the original stories, and diminishes the mystique of the Kai Lords. Of course that is just in my opinion of course ;) It reminds me of when a friend of mine tried to get me playing City of Heroes. The notion that in a setting which should promote the diversity of capabilities of characters, that everyone must start, and largely remain, on some standardized level of ability. Well /that/ is weird to me. Particularly in this instance since the setting appeals so strongly to those that have a familiarity with the original material. In any event, the easy fix for me was just to use the classes in a different setting.
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Postby jadrax » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:44 pm

Send the knights to deal with a crisis, rather then the one remaining lone Kai Lord.
I think to be honest, its more they do different jobs, Kai lords are the commands you send behind infantry lines, Knights are your shock troops for all out wars. Its not that the Kai are "better" it's that there specialised in surving on there own, sneaking and infultration. Where as Knights are much better at pure warfare.
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Postby Silent Wolf » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:44 pm

I think to be honest, its more they do different jobs, Kai lords are the commands you send behind infantry lines, Knights are your shock troops for all out wars. Its not that the Kai are "better" it's that there specialised in surving on there own, sneaking and infultration. Where as Knights are much better at pure warfare.[/quote]

Well, just examining the various books 1-5. Lone Wolf clearly must work alone, for the plot in book one. In book two he is the only one that can carry the Sommerswerd, and yes the kingdom is under siege. Not to say you couldn't send a few knights along with him though if they were that capable. Book three we send the last remaining hope to defeat the Darklords to hunt down a traitor without benefit of much backup either. Book four we send him to the south after the knights have failed basically. Book five we send him on as an envoy on a diplomatic mission. In every instance there was sneaking and infiltration, but that was never the original plan. Just an observation :)
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Postby Skyman » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:36 am

Lone Wolf, as a Kai Lord, was simply that much more capable then other characters of a comperable level of experience in other classes.
Well, we don't really know the experience level of other characters in the books, and we do know that Lone Wolf began at level 5, very high for someone so young and higher than the vast majority ever achieve, so I don't think it's false to say that he was higher level than most people he ran into. I do think it's very clear that Lone Wolf is one of the most talented Kai Lords there's been (most of them haven't defeated the Chaos Master, a bevy of Darklords, the Cener druids, etc.) so I don't think he's a perfect example to show that any Kai is going to be stronger than any other character of a given level.
I don't see the problem with it when it does not dimninish a story, or the mystique of a class based on another body of work. In this instance forcing this balance between classes does both. It rather is a slap in the face of the original stories, and diminishes the mystique of the Kai Lords. Of course that is just in my opinion of course
In a heroic game like Lone Wolf, I think every character should have a mystique. The Sommerlund Knight of the Realm is a shining paragon of virtue. The magician of Dessi has magic running through his veins. The Telchos Amazon has honed her body and tapped into primal power. Certainly, Kai Lords are above the norm, but all PC classes are meant to be so. I probably wouldn't put anyone who is a knight in the Knight of the Realm prestige class, as not all of them are 'PC level' people (it may be the default of the LW game to do that, but that's not standard in d20 and not a practice I'd agree with).

Finally, I don't think it affects the mystique of the Kai at all. The mystique comes from their place in the world and the individuals who fill the role, not the mechanical power of the class. There are numerous high level Kai as is very clear, they have supernatural abilities no one else can duplicate, and they have done important things. I think they're still going to have a very special place in the world and a certain mystique even if a 7th level Sommerlund Knight of the Realm's Combat Skill is two points higher than an equivelant Kai's. I think Magnamund would simply be a boring place to RP if the other characters couldn't match the Kai at all.

I hope I'm not sounding confrontative, it's not my intention. I think we both enjoy the same things about the series and about what we get from gaming, we just have different perspectives on how that should be implemented in an RPG.
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Postby Silent Wolf » Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:13 am

Ultimately I suppose I am a traditionalist. The two classes I have the most interest in are the ones that are "classic" so to speak. The Kai lord and Shianti Wizard. As such we simply are looking at the game from different perspectives. You are looking at it as it's own RPG based on the game books so it seems. Which in fairness is what it was meant to be naturally. I am looking at it as an extension of the game books, and thus not fully satisfied with the other classes. For our unique purposes each point of view serves our own ends, and what we want from the game.

As far as being combative, no not combative in the least. We simply see things a bit differently. The beauty of any Role Play system is that we will all interpret it differently. I see things one way, you another. but in the end we all enjoy the material, just in our own unique ways. :) We simply agree to disagree, since this is all opinion based anyway. I appreciate your point of view, thanks for sharing it.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:45 am

Silent Wolf wrote:Book three we send the last remaining hope to defeat the Darklords to hunt down a traitor without benefit of much backup either.
Actualy if examined alone you'll find that book three works perfectly as a stand alone adventure (with just enough setting related stuff to entice you further in). Of course I may be slightly biased as it was the first Lone Wolf book I ever got (and got me interested in the others).
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Postby columbob » Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:07 pm

Silent Wolf wrote:In book two he is the only one that can carry the Sommerswerd, and yes the kingdom is under siege. Not to say you couldn't send a few knights along with him though if they were that capable.
At first, the mission was covert, but he was surrounded by a whole ship's worth of sailors. From Port Bax on, however, he was accompanied by a small troop of knights (6 of them, I think) commanded by Lord Rhygar.
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Postby jadrax » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:28 pm

Book 3 is a perfect exmaple of a senario where Knights suffer. I just ran an adventure in kalte and the Knight in my group hatred it.

No horses, No Metal Armour, Survival checks morning noon and night, and all the natives use bows and Ski away.

Terrable place to be almost anything but a Kai Lord.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:45 pm

jadrax wrote:Book 3 is a perfect exmaple of a senario where Knights suffer. I just ran an adventure in kalte and the Knight in my group hatred it.

No horses, No Metal Armour, Survival checks morning noon and night, and all the natives use bows and Ski away.

Terrable place to be almost anything but a Kai Lord.
Well if you've got a good party (meaning guys who'll help each other out once in a while) then there's no need for any character to suffer. Encourage your knight to use the adventure as a character building experience: let him grumble about the icy wastes of Kalte in future adventures.

"Lad, you don't know the meaning of tough. Not untill you've suffered frostbite at the foot of the Viad Glacier shall you dare to speak of hardship in my presence."

Then just wait 'till he suffers sun stroke if he insists on wearing full armour in Vassagonia or any of the southern deserts :).
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Postby Silent Wolf » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:18 pm

columbob wrote:
Silent Wolf wrote:In book two he is the only one that can carry the Sommerswerd, and yes the kingdom is under siege. Not to say you couldn't send a few knights along with him though if they were that capable.
At first, the mission was covert, but he was surrounded by a whole ship's worth of sailors. From Port Bax on, however, he was accompanied by a small troop of knights (6 of them, I think) commanded by Lord Rhygar.
Yes, knights whom, if memory serves, were all slain. Not that they were of the PC character class mind you, and they all died very heroically spurring Lone Wolf on to his eventual recovery of the sword of the sun. Likewise I am sure the sailors who were all killed were not of the PC class either. But again, taking the character classes of Kai Lord and Shianti Mage away from the, IMHO, juiced up character classes in the book solves the problem for me admirably. Off to the Forgotten Realms with them, which is where my group wishes to play anyway. They are not so much system wise much more powerful. But it does help bring them back a certain mystique lost in my mind among the various amped up classes available in the Lone Wolf RPG.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:02 pm

Silent Wolf wrote:Off to the Forgotten Realms with them, which is where my group wishes to play anyway.
You have my deepest condolences. Some of the guys I play with have the same bad taste for that disneyfied silly magic stuff where every bar keeper and his son owns a +lots sword, has saved the world three times and magic is big, flashy and only lasts a few seconds because it's just special effects. Fortunately most of the guys I play with aren't into that :).
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Postby Silent Wolf » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:55 pm

Balgin Stondraeg wrote:
Silent Wolf wrote:Off to the Forgotten Realms with them, which is where my group wishes to play anyway.
You have my deepest condolences. Some of the guys I play with have the same bad taste for that disneyfied silly magic stuff where every bar keeper and his son owns a +lots sword, has saved the world three times and magic is big, flashy and only lasts a few seconds because it's just special effects. Fortunately most of the guys I play with aren't into that :).
Any setting is only as good as the story teller makes it. Personally, no barkeeps with magical weapons for me. But on the other hand if I wanted Tolkein type fantasy that is what I'd be playing too ;). My preference is for something somewhere in the middle of the two.

On a completely personal note, It also works well with the Kai and Shianti wizard. As people, PCs and NPCs, take a step back and evaluate them in a manner that would be lacking among a cast of all painstakingly balanced uber classes.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:38 am

The only problem with taking the Kai Lords into another d20 fantasy setting is that they tend to have their own psionics rules (especialy FR which is very psychic heavy and don't even mention Dark Sun :p) and those rules are seriously different to the Kai psychic disciplines. Making them work and mesh together is always a bit of a headache.
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Postby Silent Wolf » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:35 pm

Balgin Stondraeg wrote:The only problem with taking the Kai Lords into another d20 fantasy setting is that they tend to have their own psionics rules (especialy FR which is very psychic heavy and don't even mention Dark Sun :p) and those rules are seriously different to the Kai psychic disciplines. Making them work and mesh together is always a bit of a headache.
Psionics aren't very prevalent in our campaign, so it wasn't much worry. But yes that can be messy. I prefer it to the alternative though. Which would be not playing the classes at all.
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Lone wolf in other d20 settings

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:50 pm

Ah a topic I can directly relate to. At the present time I am playing a Kai Lord in a d20 fantasy campaign using mostly 3.5 rules, and the character has about the same power level as the rest of the group. In this world, the Kai Lords used to be one of the main defenders against evil for both Northern and Southern Magnamund, which are two of five continents on the world. Essentially, they fell into the same trap whic the Kai of Magnamund did, and all of them were slaughered to a man. The monastery was also the main temple of Kai in this world, so when the Darklords overran the continent, they slaughtered the greater portion of his worshippers. Now deities in D&D and many other fantasy d20 worlds have power in proportion to the amount they are worshipped. With the death of the Kai and Kai's priests, as well as the ability of the Darklords to lessen access to divine magic from the good gods through the use of the Doomstones (more on those later), Kai and many other good deities (we use the Forgotten Realms Pantheon with adjustments made for the gods occupying the portfolios that Kai, Ishir, Naar, and the rest of the Pentad accept) became far less powerful, allowing the Darklords to overcome the forces of good fairly easily. Essentially, all of Northern Magnamund other than the cities of Holmgard and Holmgren in Sommerlund are under the rule of the Darklords, while the Southern continent is in a three way war between the Sho'gaash, the Darklords, and Shasarak.

Now there are some other differences in the South as well. There was a group of global peacekeepers, similar to what the UN could be, that fought against the forces of evil and injustice known as the Talions. The Talions are drawn from a novel by Michael Stackpole, and they maintain order and justice throughout the land by training the troops of various nations in new strategies to make them equal to their brethren (since this prevents coutries from causing wars) and providing Justices that follow criminals and evil that range from country to country, providing judgement and police duties for these hard to catch or combat foes. However, they grew arrogant, and were not prepared when the Sho'gaash and he armies of Drakkarim, half-dragon generals, priests of Tiamat, and draconic support flew into their country, known as Talianna, (which replaces the land of Lunarlia), and killed them all. She was moved from the Hardlands to the lands of Naaros for game purposes, and has since opened a portal to the first layer of Hell where Tiamat the five head dragon queen of evil dragons lairs. The occupation of Naaros and the immense evil power that lairs there, has given her a strong position to launch attacks against the holdings of the Darklords in the north amd west parts of Southern Magnamund, and the eastern portion of the continent against Shasarak.


Essentially the Sho'gaash has the support of half-dragon Drakkarim warriors and priests of Tiamat who are her generals, devils from Tiamat's lair on the first plane of Hell, and evil dragons of all types, as well the remaining Agaraashi who still lair in Naaros. She holds Talianna/Lunarlia, Bhanar (being a vampire doesn't do you a who lot of good when your opponents can breath acid and overcome your army), Chai (the warriors of Chai may be potent, but even they have problems against creatures that can control your mind, teleport, yada, yada,) and Vaduzhan with an iron fist. The Darklords and the Cener Druids (who got a new lease on life with the destruction of the Herbalish and combined their forces from Kaum and Cener) control Lencia, Kasland, Boden, Starn, Ilion, Cincoria, Klarnos, Kaum, Halia, and Telchos. There are a group of Telchos Warriors attempting to overthrown the Cener Druids rule of their land via guerilla action, but they don't have the ability to break the curse that has been placed on their fields or the effective power to crush the armies of the Darklords in the area. However, you can't get better than the Telchos Warrior class in small groups for skirmishing and guerilla raids in a desert setting.

Everything east of Naaros other than Azanam is under the rule of Shasarak. He is attempting bring the spirit of Agaraash back under his control to level the Darklords and the Sho'gaash, and then move against them in the North. Only the Kundi are left to oppose him, and they can only do so in a limited fashion, lest Shasarak turn his attention to their jungle land and destroy it with summoned demons and the flames of the Shadakine Wytches.

Northern Magnamund is under the complete rule of the Darklords, with the exception of Vassagonia who is their ally, and the cities of Holmgard and Holmgren in Sommerlund, which are under siege. This setup means that most of the classes in the Lone Wolf book are rare or scattered, so the players are using D&D classes from other continents to be able to overcome the evil that awaits them on the two continents. But enough setting and background.

In order to become a Kai Lord in this world, a character must be able to meet the requirements to enter the class, making the Kai Lord a 20 level prestige class. Kai Lords lose access to feats after starting the Kai Lord class, and abide by the rules and vows of the order. My DM eliminated psychic combat from the game due to the huge influx of D&D critters and classes, but I am in the process of working the psychic combat rules into the new d20 psionics system so that they can be used as well. Kai Mindblast powers still function as normal, as do all Kai disciplines. I have found that a Kai Lord can compete with normal d20 classes and prestige combos fairly well, but their power pales against 4th level and higher arcane and divine magics until they gain the higher ranks of the Magnakai disciplines as well as potent monsters with damage reduction or the wide varieties of undead who are immune to mindblast. Clerics can heal far better than any Kai Lord can, as well as providing defense for a group, etc, and psions, wizards, warmages, sorcerors, druids, wilders, and warlocks can inflict equivalent or much higher damage at 6th level than a Kai can at all. Spells and psionic powers are much heavier damage dealing in D&D then d20 Lone Wolf, so the class features of the various Lone Wolf classes become far less impressive then a 10d6 fireball released by a 10th level warmage who adds his Intelligence bonus to the damage, or other spells.

So there is no real reason to worry about the Lone Wolf character/class features being overpowered. Due to the common availability of magic items and spells in most D&D worlds as well as prestige classes and feats, Lone Wolf class abilities are equal or even underpowered in many cases in comparison.
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Postby Andrew » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:09 pm

phantomdoodler wrote:The main problem I had was that Kai Lords were just too damn powerful. its the reason why now all the lwrpg classes have had to be boosted,just to compete, but doing so, that also has created problems. Now all classess have to be uber powerful by the time they hit later levels, meaning its just not possible to play lowly thieves,rangers or academics. Everyone has to use powerful magic like abilities. Take the Lyris Sage. In the books, they were portrayed as prophetic and mystical, but now they seem to have aquired advanced squashbuckling skills. Sommlending Knights, who just seemed to be standard noble warriors, are now blessed with powerful disciplines.Buckaneers were just pirates- now they have mystical abilities that really should be just highly skilled in what they do.
Whats next- Redeemer monks with the ability to silently kill?
In my game I am going to keep Kai lords as powerful as the disciplines are described in the books, but weaker than the rpg, and tone down the other classes as well. Players will be able to play all manner of normal types,including peasants and thieves and rangers, much like the Magnamund companion board game(where you could play a merchant or even an Innkeeper). The Kai Lord may be a bit unbalanced , but they have far more restrictions imposed by their order. They may even be off limits in certain campaigns.
I am also going to allow Kloons,Ogrons,Noodnics, and Szalls as player races.
Basically I want to play the game i have had in my head since 1984, rather than what the current game has become.
I totally disagree with you. Any problem with the Kai lords being too powerful is a problem with the Gm, or the player.
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Postby DuskFox » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:30 pm

phantomdoodler wrote:Buckaneers were just pirates- now they have mystical abilities that really should be just highly skilled in what they do.
Not that I disagree with the rest of your points, but on this particular point I have to say that the book makes mention of the fact that a true Shadaki Buccaneer is rare, and most pirates are just pirates. It's only the truly exceptional pirate that has any levels in Buccaneer.
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only D&D conversions ?

Postby Jinxed » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:50 pm

i wonder if there is anyone, who tried to convert LoneWolf to something else than D&D-Rules.
Actually, I don´t like D&D very much because many D&D-Players I know tend to be real Munchkins... well, you might say "too bad for you" and your totally right - but...

does perhaps somebody know other conversions ?

I try Storyteller, because there are also many special abilities in the whole WoD (+Exalted and other...) that could easily used for LW.

Or is there something special in D&D, that makes it perfect for a conversion ?

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Postby jadrax » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:28 am

Over on Towerofthesun there's a couple of Lone Wolf conversions been started upon by various people, including a Warhammer one that's fleshed out pretty well.
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Postby Silver Fox » Tue May 02, 2006 3:34 pm

jadrax wrote:Over on Towerofthesun there's a couple of Lone Wolf conversions been started upon by various people, including a Warhammer one that's fleshed out pretty well.
Who has done the Warhammer conversion. Is it available for download do you know?

Thanks.
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