Shotguns and Starships

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CptEvil

Shotguns and Starships

Postby CptEvil » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:58 pm

Just wondering if anyone has - like myself - players who have requested stats for a good, old-fashioned shotgun?

What would that stats for such a beast be?

Thanks
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Postby Natxomann » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:45 pm

I am currently making a set of rules covering virtually all the personal firearms of the B5 universe , from any class of firearm (pistols , rifles , shotguns , machineguns and the like)ETC weapons , Gauss weapons , to all energy weapons (and the weather effects on these) .
I decided to take the shotgun rules from the Call of Chtulu D20 RPG , so the typical shotgun (12 gauge) shold have the following characteristics :
- Range increment : 45 ft .
- Weight (typicall pump-action repeating shotgun) : 5 pounds .
- Shotguns are noted for their great flexibility , and they can employ several types of ammo :

- Slug : Single solid shot . Damage 2D10 . Does non-penetrating damage , which effectively doubles the DR of any armoured target .

- Buckshot : Multiple proyectile shot : damage is reduced by every range increment : 1-45 ft - 3D6 / 46-90 ft - 2D6 / 91-135 ft - 1D6 . Also does non-penetrating damage .

- Birdshot : Similar to buckshot , but it is comprised of many more and smaller projectiles , being employed mainly to hunt small birds . It is specically safe to employ this ammunition onboard of a ship or space station , so it was the weapon of choice of all Earthforce boarding parties until the PPGs were introduced . It can be safelly employed also in colony domes , so a shotgun can fire this ammunition on places like the cities of Mars and the like . Damage : 1-45 ft - 3D3 / 46-90 ft - 2D3 / 91-135 ft - 1D3 . Also does non-penetrating damage .

- Flechette : Military grade ammo , more precise than buckshot or birdshot , but strictly forbidden to civilians . Damage is reduced by every 2 range increments and unlike the rest of shotgun projectiles does normal (penetrating) damage . Strictly forbidden on any enclosed enviroment (ships , station , domes) . Damage : 1-45 ft - 3D6 / 46-90 ft - 3D6 / 91-135 ft - 2D6 / 136-180 ft - 2D6 / 181-225 ft - 1D6 / 226-270 ft - 1D6 .

- Riot : Special non lethal ammo : rules equal to those of Slug , but it does subdual damage .

Hope you like this (and the rest of the work).
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Postby Sundog » Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:13 pm

I for one do like it. And I would be very interested in your complete work.

I've already had a request for a Centauri GROPOS rifle, they use Gauss Guns...
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Postby Natxomann » Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:08 pm

Hmmm... if I recall correctly , the Centauri main personal weapon was a particle rifle , while the gauss guns were employed only by tanks and other AFVs .
Have no fear . I am making a full coverage on all the main races , but I have a dire need of images of some alien weapons , like Narn , Minbari , Centauri and /or Leage races weapons . Perhahps someone here could help me .
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Postby Natxomann » Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:12 pm

I am also developing rules for Gauss and ETC personal weapons , but they have few advantages over conventional (chemically propelled) firearms (mainly the fact that they ignore some points of DR) , and few races really employ them at all .
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Postby MW Turnage » Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:39 pm

Natxomann wrote:I am also developing rules for Gauss and ETC personal weapons , but they have few advantages over conventional (chemically propelled) firearms (mainly the fact that they ignore some points of DR) , and few races really employ them at all .
Why would there be a DR-ignoring capability? They're simply a different propulsion method.

That said, odds are that by the 2250's all conventional weapons are ETC (electrothermal-chemical) rounds. Much safer and with much better performance (not to mention more reliable in non-Earth standard atmospheres or vacuum).

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Postby LoneStranger » Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:40 am

Actually one of the special rules for ship mounted railguns is that they ignore at least part of the target's DR so it's not entirely impossible that anti-personnel or anti-armor railguns would be able to do the same thing.

It's a question of velocity, slugthrowers have to deal with making sure all the powder ignites and the flaws in the barrel of the weapon while a railgun (from what I've seen) is a series of magnets that create the acceleration of the slug. It's better there if one magnetic ring doesn't work the others can make up for it. Besides since most of the railguns I've seen float the slug in the middle of the rings it can be accelerated faster.
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Postby Natxomann » Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:34 pm

Actually , ETC and Railguns propel their projectiles at higher muzzle velocities than comparable firearms , and as a consequence of this they have superior penetration capabilities .
If heavy or power armours are someday introduced into service , those weapons would do these as effective as current personal armour is against a NATO 7,62x51mm bullet .
Someone remembers Starship Troopers ?(Heinlein's novel) . The Armoured suits really were not made for protection , but to make every soldier a single-man weapons and sensors platform of high mobility , and were not terribly effective against enemy weapons .
As a result of this (and the introduction of powerful energy weapons , as well as a greater tendency towards space warfare) seems that in the Babylon 5 universe no one has bothered to develope or use heavy or powered armours , and those races that until recently were dependant on chemically propelled slug throwers (as the humans) , still use them in ground combat , due their effectivity against most conventional armour .
A good example is the standard assault rifle employed by Earthforce GROPOS , The EF-52 assault weapon system , a 7 mm automatic rifle , combined with a pump-action 20mm grenade launcher (seen on Crusade's episode Genius Loci) . One of this weapons bullets does 2D8 points of damage (firing buckshot or flechette ammo , the grenade launcher does 3D8 DP at short range , rules equal to those of a shotgun), and unlike the energy weapons is not affected by climatic conditions , so a GROPO firing a burst to a Minbari warrior (armour value of 5DR) will do enought damage to incapacitate or kill him .
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Postby Natxomann » Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:23 pm

Sorry . The Crusade episode was not other than The memory of war .
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Postby psyclonejack » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:01 am

Sorry got into this topic late . . . But . . .

For persons that have not fired a shotgun, or have no experience with what a slug fired from a shotgun can do. Let me just say. They ARE armor piercing. Police officers I know have shared stories of Kevlar vests with holes in them. SOFT Body Armor vests only offer pistol and partial shotgun protection, birdshot and buckshot, but not SHOTGUN SLUGS.

The much higher velocity of shotgun rounds requires a HARD Body Armor Rifle Plates – classified as Level III or Level IV. They are made of Ballistic Steel, Ceramic or Polyethylene, and usually range in size from 10" by 12" and weight anywhere from 3.5 to 9 lbs per plate to cover the Chest and / or Back.

So Natxomann, you may want to factor this into your write up of ShotGun Slug ammo. It will blow a hole in the side of a space station and cause explosive decompression. And if it doesn't I don't want to be anywhere near the richtochet.

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Postby Jal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:33 am

It will blow a hole in the side of a space station and cause explosive decompression. And if it doesn't I don't want to be anywhere near the richtochet.
sigh..... :roll:

why bring them into the game when the EA, and the other races seen on B5 don`t use "slug throwers" (pistol, shotgun rifle etc) of any form, but have switched to weapons like ppg`s precisely for the reason PsyJack posted :?:

they are used by security groups on some planets but not in space.
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Postby Sundog » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:15 pm

Well, the obvious reason is that not all B5 adventures will occur in space. On a planetary surface, slug-throwers are probably the weapon of choice, since you don't usually need to worry about explosive decompression from punching out a bulkhead. They'd be preferred because of ease of maintenance and (probably) inexpensiveness.

Shotguns, on the other hand, are one of the classic close-combat weapons for a reason. And if you use buckshot or even birdshot they remain deadly without threatening hull integrity. AP effects only occur with solid slugs and Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot rounds (The latter could be considered a light anti-tank weapon!)
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Postby MW Turnage » Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:47 pm

Sundog wrote:Well, the obvious reason is that not all B5 adventures will occur in space. On a planetary surface, slug-throwers are probably the weapon of choice, since you don't usually need to worry about explosive decompression from punching out a bulkhead. They'd be preferred because of ease of maintenance and (probably) inexpensiveness.

Shotguns, on the other hand, are one of the classic close-combat weapons for a reason. And if you use buckshot or even birdshot they remain deadly without threatening hull integrity. AP effects only occur with solid slugs and Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot rounds (The latter could be considered a light anti-tank weapon!)
RE: slugthrowers as weapons of choice: I'd have to do some hunting, but JMS specifically mentioned (I believe it was around the timeframe of 'GROPOS' first airing) that slugthrowers were in fact the primary weapons of the infantry. PPGs were primarily for sidearms and shipboard work.

As for shotguns, they are no less dangerous than any other projectile weapon inside a pressurized hull. Just because it might not penetrate body armor doesn't mean it might not penetrate a hull...or an interior wall or door with an undesirable result.

Specialized ammo types might reduce a lot of the risk but there's still other considerations. Vacuum effects on the ammo (though ETC propellants would get around this). Problems with recoil in low gravity. PPG ranges are at least as great as shotguns would be...in the end, why bother? Especially when a PPG likely has at least as great an effect on an armored target.

This isn't to say that stats for them are worthless. I'm certain some version of the shotgun will be as much a civilian mainstay two centuries from now as it's predecessors were two centuries ago. I just don't see much military use of them, however.
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Postby Jal » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:35 am

I'd have to do some hunting, but JMS specifically mentioned
that would be greatly appreciated. :D
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Postby Natxomann » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:48 pm

Lets see :
Shotgun slugs are non-penetratring projectiles . This does not mean that they have no armour piercing capability , and the way armour works in the B5 RPG (damage reduction) can make them pretty effective .
While most people here seems to forget is that B5 timeframe personal armours are much more advanced and protective than modern kevlar vests , but the most effective personal armour developed by humans , the reinforced flack armour has a DR of 5 and it has a weight of 20-22 lbs , while its Minbari equivalent (the absolutely best personel armour in existance) has a DR of 7 and a similar weight . But these are rare items , only used by special assault units , like the EA Hostage Rescue Teams , or some units of Minbari assault infantry , while the armour carried by a tipical cop/security officer gives a DR of 2 at best , and the armour employed by the EA GROPOS has a DR of 4 .
A 12 gauge shotgun slug does 2D10 points of damage , and tipically it will inflict around 9 DP , so against an armoured Security officer (DR2) it will do 5 DP (9-DR2 x 2) , enought to cause serious wounds to a 1st-2nd level character .

As for bring them to the game ... well , if you don´t like them , do not use them , but as matter of fact , projectile weapons have a few advantages over energy weapons , and this alone would be enought to convince anyone to employ them . Also , you should remember that a few projectile weapons appear on several of the books (a Minbari one included) , although I coincide with you in the fact that most races should have discarded them in favor of energy weapons (mostly to avoid ammo shortages) , and most advanced races (as the Minbari or Yolu) consider them barbaric as weapons of war (specially shotguns) . I am also covering some of this in my work .

PS.
I am also including a lot of "arcaic" weapons , as lever-action Winchester rifles or two-barreled shotguns (as well as rules about swan-off versions of these) for all the fans of Firefly (myself included) out there . I am also experiencing with rules for recoil and other niceties .
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Postby August » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:53 pm

Ah, Firefly....

I assume you are talking about the wonderful level-action 'pistol gripped' sidearm carried by Zoe? That is a fine piece of work... and the gun ain't bad either. :)
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Postby Natxomann » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:11 pm

That was exactly what I was talking about , even if the weapon was also ocasionally employed by Jayne , who BTW also has a weapon that I used as inspiration to create a self-loadind heavy human civilian rifle (yes , I am talking of "Vera") .
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:42 pm

FWIW, "Vera" is a dressed-up Saiga 12 shotgun. The honking big magazine is unmistakable.

It's a nice gun, if a little crude, I own one. It will even fire 3" magnum shells. You can also fire slugs, of course.

Stats should be similar to any other 12-guage semiauto. 5 shots per clip, and you can't do 5+1. Reload times similar to any other AK-47 variant.

One annoyance: it takes two hands to reload, one has to hold the bolt back while the other inserts the magazine. Once the mag is in, you let go of the bolt and it shoots forward and chambers the first shell in the clip.

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Postby Natxomann » Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:38 pm

WOW!!! .
Thank you by the information , but I have already designed autoshotguns , like the Enfield Devastator , or the Deberny Ultimax , and I have also finished a semiautomatic heavy rifle (11mm Magnum , roughly equal to a modern .444 Magnum) , based on Vera , but I open to sugestion on new weapons .
Hmmm... I have one question . I took the decision that selfloading weapons should be designed for specific ammunition , while repeating or breech loading weapons (shotguns included) can use any type of ammo of a given calibre (that would be the main reason why they are still around during the B5 timeframe) , but I feel curiosity about the fact that some automatic shotguns seemingly can employ both conventional loads (those employed by buckshot , birdshot or slug ) as well as riot ammo , that theoretically employ less pwerful ("cold") loads .
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Postby Lane Shutt » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:44 am

Natxomann wrote:WOW!!! .
I have one question . I took the decision that selfloading weapons should be designed for specific ammunition , while repeating or breech loading weapons (shotguns included) can use any type of ammo of a given calibre
, but I feel curiosity about the fact that some automatic shotguns seemingly can employ both conventional loads (those employed by buckshot , birdshot or slug ) as well as riot ammo , that theoretically employ less pwerful ("cold") loads .
By "self loading" do you mean semiautomatic pistols etc.?
If so then they are limited by caliber and cartridge length but could use a variety of loads such as hollow point, AP, shot (forget actual name) frangible rounds.

IIRC auto shotguns firing "less than lethal" rounds either use the manual cycling mode or have a selector that allows low power rounds to cycle the action.

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