Might of Magnamund, or not? …

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
elijah-sabretooth
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Postby elijah-sabretooth » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:53 am

columbob wrote: As far as we know, work hasn't really started on that, except for what notes August might have written from his ideas and the feedback we've been giving out.
is there any topic I could see regarding it?
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Postby columbob » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:36 pm

elijah-sabretooth wrote:
columbob wrote: As far as we know, work hasn't really started on that, except for what notes August might have written from his ideas and the feedback we've been giving out.
is there any topic I could see regarding it?
You'll have to look up old threads, either here or on TotS, I don't remember exactly, but I'm sure we've already discussed and given ideas on what could go in a possible Might of Magnamund book.

Edit: Here, have a look at this thread:

http://towerofthesun.com/lonewolf/modul ... opic&t=113
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Postby DuskFox » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:36 pm

It seems as though the line is struggling, with staggered releases and a low production schedule. This is a shame, since the setting is so rich and well-suited to a gaming environment, but may have something to do with the unfortunate structure of the character classes--the appeal becomes limited because you're stuck playing a race-class-homeland combination that's somewhat overspecialized to begin with. Or maybe I'm just talking out my backside.
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Postby redlaco » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:33 pm

DuskFox wrote:[...] the appeal becomes limited because you're stuck playing a race-class-homeland combination that's somewhat overspecialized to begin with. Or maybe I'm just talking out my backside.
Well for me this specialization of the classes helps to put more meat on the bone. I find it far more colourful to play a Sommlending knight than another generic paladin. Of course, with some work, you can manage to give some distinctive flavour to your paladin (with supplements like The Quintessential Paladin for instance) :) , but it rarely gets as cool as a Sommlending Knight, well to me anyway. If you want more generic classes, there's always D&D and I don't see why they should have done something generic as it is already available. People being what they are, if August had preferred the "generic" way, many would have complained about the lack of flavour. I guess you just can't please everybody, then...
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Postby DuskFox » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:02 pm

I'm always capable of fleshing out my characters plenty without the aid of the class telling me how it's done. What if I want to be a buccaneer but I don't want to be Shadakine? Or a gunner, but not a dwarf? Or what if I just want to play a thief, and I've got my own idea how to do that? Or if I want to play an Ice Barbarian, but there aren't any classes for that? That's where the system becomes a bit limited for me. Likewise, it doesn't really breed individuality in that detail--characters have such specific racial and social backgrounds for their characters that those without a strong sense of character will just end up acting like the same character.
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Postby Kojiro » Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:03 am

DuskFox wrote:Or a gunner, but not a dwarf?
There are no non-dwarf gunners in Magnamund, so that point is entirely moot.
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Postby DuskFox » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:30 pm

Kojiro wrote:
DuskFox wrote:Or a gunner, but not a dwarf?
There are no non-dwarf gunners in Magnamund, so that point is entirely moot.
Do you want me to go out and count the times that Joe Random in a Lone Wolf book had a dwarven musket? I'm not even talking soldiers--I'm talking people like the owner of a barge. There's a class for Shianti mages, and in the history of Magnamund, there has only actually ever been one of those.
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Postby Kojiro » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:25 am

Doesn't mean they knew how to do all the fancy stuff the dwarves can do with guns. All they knew was load, aim, and pull the trigger. Give an NPC with the warrior class a gun, that's about the extent of your "non-dwarven gunner."
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Postby DuskFox » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:39 am

Okay... let's try this again.

In the entire history of Magnamund, there has only been one human who has wielded the magic of the Shianti, and yet there is a class for this type of magician.

While rare, the guns made by the dwarves of Bor are available to humans. The possibility that a handful of owners have acquired great proficiency with such items is far more likely than the possibility of their being any other Shianti mages.

Therefore, I am annoyed that if one is to be a gunner, one must also be a dwarf. This does not make sense to me.
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Postby Kojiro » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:47 am

The dwarves have kept their gunning techniques closely guarded secrets for AGES! No one who is not a dwarf even knows how to make gunpowder in Magnamund. The reason the Drodarin have kept it this way is for fear that the Drakkarim and their Darklord masters, as well as other minions of evil, would learn these secrets. There is a risk involved concerning gunning secrets escaping dwarven control.

It's not nearly as threatening to mysteriously have another Shianti Mage running loose. If the Darklands learned the secrets of the gun, all of Magnamund would be seriously screwed!
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Postby DuskFox » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:00 am

We're going to have to agree to disagree, Kojiro, because I'm still pretty firm in the belief that you're totally wrong.
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Postby redlaco » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:31 am

DuskFox wrote:I'm always capable of fleshing out my characters plenty without the aid of the class telling me how it's done. What if I want to be a buccaneer but I don't want to be Shadakine? Or a gunner, but not a dwarf? Or what if I just want to play a thief, and I've got my own idea how to do that? Or if I want to play an Ice Barbarian, but there aren't any classes for that? That's where the system becomes a bit limited for me. Likewise, it doesn't really breed individuality in that detail--characters have such specific racial and social backgrounds for their characters that those without a strong sense of character will just end up acting like the same character.
Okay, now I see your point and I agree partially. Since I intend to run only one moderately long LW campaign, I don't think my players will complain about that "over-specialization".
I plan to introduce the LW campaign as a break from more involved campaign, just like I use Star Wars.
Really heroic, simple PC concepts, rules light; basically just to have simple fun when we're too tired for something more complex.
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Postby DuskFox » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:49 am

In that light, Redlaco, I can totally agree with you. The LW character classes are plug-and-play--you pick one, and you know where you can go with it, how it should be played, and what your role is in the group. The entire system makes character generation easy, as a matter of fact, so you can essentially play the same day you roll up characters. It's simple, it's easy, and it doesn't take a lot of deep thought. This is great for some, bad for others. I'm glad you see my point of view on the subject, since I was beginning to feel like I was completely alone here.

It's funny that you say you use it in the same way you use Star Wars, as my group has taken time out lately from our regular game to play a TIE squadron campaign for Star Wars which ends when all of the original characters die. After two games, we have two original squadron members to go, and then it's back to the regular game.
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Postby columbob » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:27 pm

DuskFox wrote: In the entire history of Magnamund, there has only been one human who has wielded the magic of the Shianti, and yet there is a class for this type of magician.
Now, now, are you telling me you're the ultimate Magnamund historian? On a story spanning millenia, all we have are a few dozen pages of history. Who knows where everybody is? Just because we only know of one Shianti, doesn't mean that there has only ever been one. That's where the RPG comes into play. If you want to make a new Shianti, go ahead and do it, the system supports it.
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Postby DuskFox » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:01 pm

I'm not the ultimate Magnamund historian, I'm just literate. The Shianti were exiled to the Isle of Lorn, which was unreachable. Somehow, Grey Star washed up on the isle, and was trained by the Shianti. It had never happened before or since. There is an entire class revolving around something that happened to one person, but there is no allowance for someone learning how to do something a bunch of dwarves know how to do. That simply doesn't make sense to me.
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Classes for Shinati Sorceror and "Canon" authentic

Postby Stormcrow the White Wolf » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:05 pm

One. According to the known history of the Shianti from the Lone Wolf books and the Grey Star books, the Shianti were all exiled from Magnamund and sent to the Isle of Lorn. Except for Shasarak, who said FU to the Shianti and became an evil servant of Naar and therefore was unaffected by the Shianti's vow due to the Grand Agreement between Ishir, Kai, and Naar. Since Naar cheats the Grand Agreement like there is no tomorrow, Ishir couldn't really do anything about Shasarak, until she could send the Shianti a mortal agent who could access and use their power to overthrow him and regain the Moonstone.

Two-Now we come for the roleplaying game. The roleplaying game of Lone Wolf d20 is meant to as close as possible to the books, but is set FIFTY YEARS BEFORE either the Lone Wolf novels or the Grey Star books. An RPG that is based off of a specific world set is designed by default to let gamers play any type of class or character iconic to the world, from a Shianti Sorceror to a Kai Lord. Other wandering souls similar to Grey Star found or accessed their inner power to become Shianti Sorcerors, some with the blessing and guidance of rogue Shianti who violated Ishir's Ban or refused to leave Magnamund for some retirement island. That's why the RPG doesn't quite follow the canon set created by the books. There is no reason why a class that uses the Warrior set could not use stolen or acquired gun technology from the Borese as their weapon of choice, blah, blah. I think people are missing the point of the Dwarven Gunner. The Dwarven Gunners are not just some clown with a musket or pistols. They are also excellent field smiths and armorers, experts in siege and fortification work, as well as crack shots with muskets, cannons, and shot. They also have a MYSTICAL CONNECTION with the Earth that makes them better shots, as witnessed by the various abilities the Way of the Gun class ability gives them. Name me one musketeer in the 17th century or beyond who could shoot arrows or projectile weapons fired at him out the air with a musket or a pistol ball.


So stop worrying about the existence of such classes.
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Postby DuskFox » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:27 pm

I can't name any gunslingers who could shoot arrows out of the air, no. I can't name any rangers who can lift rocks with their minds and heal wounds through sheer force of will, either. Trying to rationalize such abilities is utter BS.

I think everyone is repeatedly (and almost deliberately) missing my point. I have nothing against the Shianti Wizard class--I can totally understand why it exists (though using Shasarak to rationalize it is silly, because he's the reason for the Shadakine Wytch class, isn't he?). I'm just saying that in the whole of Magnamund, there has only ever been one. Just the one.

Bearing that in mind, the odds that someone who was not vertically challenged would develop a talent with the gun that equals that of the dwarves is much higher than the odds of there being more than one Shianti Wizard in a millennium.

What I'm really saying with this retardedly over-argued comparison is that if I want to be a gunner, I have to be a dwarf, and if I want to be a dwarf, I have to be a gunner, and I think this is dumb. I don't really want to be either, at the moment, but the option to be one or the other is closed to me, and I dislike not having the option. Capice? I feel the same way about the kundi--if I want to be a kundi, I have to be a mystic (though I do understand, with their tribal mysticism, why it's highly unlikely that anyone but the kundi would pick up on kundi magic). What if I want to be a kundi warrior? Surely such a thing must exist.

And if the Shianti can teach a human their uber-powerful magics, then the Dwarves can teach a human how to fire a gun like the Saint of Killers.
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Postby Kojiro » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:11 am

Now, now... who said dwarves couldn't become Kai Lords? :D
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Postby agashamirv » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:28 am

DuskFox wrote: I think everyone is repeatedly (and almost deliberately) missing my point. ...

Bearing that in mind, the odds that someone who was not vertically challenged would develop a talent with the gun that equals that of the dwarves is much higher than the odds of there being more than one Shianti Wizard in a millennium.
I personally know nothing of LW, but I've been reading this thread.

You're the one that isn't listening. The last poster talked about the mystic abilities of dwarves. It's not just a skill/learning thing from what the others are saying, but something magical through their connection w/ the earth. I don't think you can learn it, you have to have it.

That's just my take on what's been said.

Carry on.
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Postby DuskFox » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:12 pm

And the mystical abilities of the Shianti (a godlike race) are not the same?

That's my point, and it was a flaming analogy.

I am listening, I just strongly disagree to the point where I reject the logic. You cannot tell me that it's okay for someone to learn magic from a godlike race from another dimension who have been inaccessible to humanity on an unassailable island for centuries, but it's not okay for someone to learn the "magic" of the dwarves and become as skilled with a gun as they are when there are thousands of dwarves and pretty much anyone can buy a gun. The argument that the dwarves are "magic" but the Shianti can teach their magic to others is pretty much hypocritical.

Besides, my point is that you can't be a dwarf without being a gunner, and you can't be a gunner without being a dwarf. You can't be a buccaneer without being Shadaki, and vice versa. I dislike the bundling of classes.

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