Might of Magnamund, or not? …

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
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Postby Ghost Bear » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:48 pm

DuskFox wrote:I'm just saying that in the whole of Magnamund, there has only ever been one. Just the one.
I agree with Dusk Fox regarding the rarity of a Shianti Sorcerer, and made the point before, over at TotS. Ian made the (quite accurate) counterpoint that the LW community would probably demand August's head on a stick if the class wasn't included.

However, I disagree with him over the specialisation of the classes. I think this is the appeal of the game, and to broaden the classes would cheapen the LW experience. However, this is a matter of opinion that I will happily agree to disagree on.

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Postby DuskFox » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:28 pm

Ghost Bear wrote:
DuskFox wrote:I'm just saying that in the whole of Magnamund, there has only ever been one. Just the one.
I agree with Dusk Fox regarding the rarity of a Shianti Sorcerer, and made the point before, over at TotS. Ian made the (quite accurate) counterpoint that the LW community would probably demand August's head on a stick if the class wasn't included.
I actually agree with Ian's point--I have no problem with the Shianti Sorcerer class (I'm sorry I kept calling it the Shianti Wizard class, but I post here from work, and my books are at home). I like the class, I totally understand why it was included, it makes perfect sense from a player perspective. I was just trying to illustrate that this ultra-rare type of character exists, and another, more plausible type of character does not. That is all.
Ghost Bear wrote:However, I disagree with him over the specialisation of the classes. I think this is the appeal of the game, and to broaden the classes would cheapen the LW experience. However, this is a matter of opinion that I will happily agree to disagree on.
I am likewise happy to disagree, as I can see the appeal of your way of thinking. The way the classes are set up just plays havoc with my campaign full of stubborn players who want to play what they want to play, whether or not there are rules play it. And to be honest, why shouldn't they? The characters they want to play make perfect sense, given the theme of the game. However, there's a great appeal to playing very setting-specific characters, too, and I can totally see that. This isn't the kind of topic anyone actually "wins" the debate on, being as subjective as it is.
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Postby Kojiro » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:37 am

DuskFox wrote:Besides, my point is that you can't be a dwarf without being a gunner, and you can't be a gunner without being a dwarf. You can't be a buccaneer without being Shadaki, and vice versa. I dislike the bundling of classes.
Repeating myself, who said dwarves can't be Kai Lords, or Shadaki couldn't be Kai Lords or Brothers of the Crystal Star? Your argument has flaws.

Anyway, the dwarves' magic seems to be more inborn than other magics. We don't know if the Shianti are automatically born with their powers like the dwarves seem to be, or if they have to learn and develop them. The Shianti magics are said to be the same magics as that wielded by the Elder Magi: True Magic. From all I've seen, True Magic can be learned, but it takes a long life full of dedication and skill to master it.
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Postby DuskFox » Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Kojiro wrote:Repeating myself, who said dwarves can't be Kai Lords, or Shadaki couldn't be Kai Lords or Brothers of the Crystal Star? Your argument has flaws.
No one said it couldn't be done, but what I did say is that the game design doesn't allow for it without kludging the system. Because race and class are not separate, it's tough to know which of the Dwarven Gunner's abilities are because he's a gunner and which are because he's a dwarf. I'm actually less concerned with dwarven Kai Lords than I am with playing non-pirate rogues from some other lineage than Shadaki, or playing a Kundi who's not a mystic. My problem is that the way the system is set up closes doors on what would normally be a sensible character decision.
Kojiro wrote:Anyway, the dwarves' magic seems to be more inborn than other magics. We don't know if the Shianti are automatically born with their powers like the dwarves seem to be, or if they have to learn and develop them. The Shianti magics are said to be the same magics as that wielded by the Elder Magi: True Magic. From all I've seen, True Magic can be learned, but it takes a long life full of dedication and skill to master it.
You have a point, but you're making one big assumption and ignoring one major point. The big assumption is on the nature of the magic of the dwarves (since we don't know either way)--I'll concede the point because one could easily draw that conclusion, but that doesn't make it true any more than it's true that all pirates are Shadaki. Honestly, the abilities of the Kai are innate, as well--you're either born with them or you're not (sort of like the Force), but you have to be taught to master them. Maybe that's the reason you don't see more Dwarf Kai Lords.

The point you're ignoring is that whether or not the Shianti magics are more easily learned, they're almost entirely inaccessible. So while it's possible that under the right circumstances someone could learn them, it is all but impossible that anyone could ever be put in that position. My point is less about the plausibility of the magics being successfully taught and more on the likelihood that anyone would even have the opportunity to learn them. I mean, it's possible that the dragons had magic they could teach to humans, but we'll never know because they're all dead. It's all hypothetical, in the end.
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Postby SilverFox » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:58 pm

It's all hypothetical, in the end.
I agree. :wink:
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Postby elijah-sabretooth » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:49 pm

the whole point is having complete freedom as in AD&D or D&D 3ed vs having limited freedom as in D&D 1st edition...

well.. there are a couple of options:

1. you stick to the rules
2. you change the rules (meaning that you will have to come up with racial abilities and statistics and new classes for the races that have only one ability)
3. you get what you like from the LWRPG and throw it in a normal D&D game where a Silvanesti elf could became a Druid/kai Lord/Gunner...


DMing I prefer the limited freedom.. it is clear and easy enough this way without a zillion of combinations...

oh one more thing.. earlier this year I wanted to run a different game..
I used the Merp system but erased all the variety on races and sub races leaving only 5 (humans, elf, warfs, halflings and minotaurs).. gave each one bonus and malus to the characteristics and trimmed down the classes (fighter, paladin, magician, cleric, battlemage, druid) as in the Might and magic 6 CRPG... BAM.. fantastic system and enjoyable without much headcache for the players...

years ago, playing D&D 1st edition and having seen the class/race Merp system we came up with our house ruling D&D 1.5 and I was (in our campaign of course) the first Dwarven Cleric of Mystara.. which was a lot of fun too...


this is all to say... have it your way but do not criticize too much the decisions made... each game has its own peculiarities.. LW has fixed classes...
If you want to critizize over classes lets say that in a game centered on Kai lords will be difficult to insert Dwarf gunners, shadaki bucanneers and witches, Telhoi warrios, kundi mystic, shianti sorcerer, cener druid, dark warriors and cultist thus leaving the DM with a limited number of playable characters (in 3 manuals :S)
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Postby DuskFox » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:50 pm

I can see your point, and I can see it both ways. I can see the sense and value in the classes as they stand, and overall I like the game. I simply prefer more freedom for my characters, as does my group, and forcing the rules to fit our campaign has been messy and cumbersome. We could simply throw in the towel and abide by the rules, but we'd all feel like we were giving up and not getting what we wanted out of the campaign (which is, after all, all about us).
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Postby Kojiro » Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:46 am

DuskFox wrote:
Kojiro wrote:Repeating myself, who said dwarves can't be Kai Lords, or Shadaki couldn't be Kai Lords or Brothers of the Crystal Star? Your argument has flaws.
No one said it couldn't be done, but what I did say is that the game design doesn't allow for it without kludging the system. Because race and class are not separate, it's tough to know which of the Dwarven Gunner's abilities are because he's a gunner and which are because he's a dwarf. I'm actually less concerned with dwarven Kai Lords than I am with playing non-pirate rogues from some other lineage than Shadaki, or playing a Kundi who's not a mystic. My problem is that the way the system is set up closes doors on what would normally be a sensible character decision.
Dear sir, the Kai Lord description under race specifically notes that the typical racial bonuses and abilities cannot be attained because of the very young age Kai Lords are trained from. Because they are isolated from their native society, Kai Lords don't develop these racial abilities. There's no "kludging up the system."
You have a point, but you're making one big assumption and ignoring one major point. The big assumption is on the nature of the magic of the dwarves (since we don't know either way)
But it's actually stated in the Dwarven Gunner class that the magics are inborn to their race alone. This is not an assumption.
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Postby DuskFox » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:16 pm

Kojiro wrote:Dear sir, the Kai Lord description under race specifically notes that the typical racial bonuses and abilities cannot be attained because of the very young age Kai Lords are trained from. Because they are isolated from their native society, Kai Lords don't develop these racial abilities. There's no "kludging up the system."
Training to be a Kai Lord from birth isn't going to make a dwarf run faster on those short legs, or prevent him (or her--I'm not biased) from growing up with greater muscle density than a human. These are less "special abilities" than they are genetics.
DuskFox wrote:You have a point, but you're making one big assumption and ignoring one major point. The big assumption is on the nature of the magic of the dwarves (since we don't know either way)
Kojiro wrote:But it's actually stated in the Dwarven Gunner class that the magics are inborn to their race alone. This is not an assumption.
And the Shianti magics are inborn--they all have it. They can just teach it to others. Technically, only Sommlending can become Kai Lords (this is how it is in the LW books), because they're the only ones born with the potential.

Look, you're not going to win this argument with me, because I disagree with you. Plus, you are focusing on something I used as an example and was not the point of my argument. This is getting ridiculous, and I'm tired of defending my damn analogy like it was the crux of my argument. Since enough people "get it" now for me to get off my soapbox, I'm done.
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Postby elijah-sabretooth » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:58 am

DuskFox wrote:
Training to be a Kai Lord from birth isn't going to make a dwarf run faster on those short legs, or prevent him (or her--I'm not biased) from growing up with greater muscle density than a human. These are less "special abilities" than they are genetics.
this may be right...
BUT can you state me the stats of a normal, no-gunner magnamund-native Dwarf?
if they are not stated any where in the manual this may mean that they do not have any peculiarity, so there is no point in complaining so much that a Dwarf can't be a Kai Lord or a Warrior...

Just read the damn manual as you like...
Your player wants to be a Gunner? who cares if he is a dwarf.. just do not take it in consideration while playing..
Your player want to be a Dwarf (but not a gunner)? who cares... it will be just a normal man vertically challenged....
your player wants to be a somlending shianti sorcerer? who cares.. there are no so big stats differences in being a somlending that you can completelly forget about it...



in Magnamund things run like this.. all classes are geographically based orders so anyone foreign CANNOT enter that order if not in such a young age that would not interfere... some worlds permit freedom, some others don't...
Damn.. never thought I had to do this discussion outside other RPG online where everyone complains that the elves are not like the Tolkien ones.. D&D is D&D, LWRPG is LWRPG, MERP is MERP, Lot is Lot.. and your game is your game...
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Postby Kojiro » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:30 am

DuskFox wrote:And the Shianti magics are inborn--they all have it. They can just teach it to others. Technically, only Sommlending can become Kai Lords (this is how it is in the LW books), because they're the only ones born with the potential.
Where does it say only Sommlending can become Kai Lords? I've seen the books say that most Kai Lords are Sommlending, but not all of them!
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Postby Lykaios » Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:30 pm

It would be safe to say that many of the Kai Lords could be Duranese if not be of Duranese descent. It is stated that the royal families of Sommerlund and Duranor are very closely tied and that intermarriages happen all of the time. This could very well be true of the common folk.

Rhygar was a half-breed (though not a Kai Lord, granted). And he was a high ranking officer (on par almost with D'Val). So you can't say that the Sommlending exclude other races from their lands or even their military at an extreme extent. Though I think it is better to leave the Kai Lords to the Sommlending, I don't think it is fair to rule out the possibility of someone from a different race taking upon the roll.
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Postby North Star » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:46 am

My feeling is that Kai Lords are born, not trained. After all, the Kai go round villages checking for potential, not all of which is either used or usable - it's not like they train just anyone. Therefore they could be Lyrian, Durenese or even Vassagonian, provided their talent is developed early enough.
Dessi Magicians and Shianti Sorcerers are born to it as well. Dwarven Gunners are another kettle of fish, but just like I want to know how a Shianti Sorcerer is around, I want to know how a non-Dwarf Gunner was trained.

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Postby Bewildered Badger » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:52 am

I'd always assumed (and this is an assumption, so don't go jumping down my throat about it if you disagree) that the Kai disciplines were unique to the Sommerlending. After all, these were the people sent forth by the god Kai with the express purpose of stopping the Darklords. If the other races of Magnamund were capable of such abilities, surely some one would have undergone a similar experience to Sun Eagle's.
As such, I'd suggest only those with Sommerlending ancestry posses the qualities needed to become a Kai (though this does not rule out, for example, a Durenese native with a Sommerlending grandmother.)
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Postby DuskFox » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:53 pm

Kojiro wrote:Where does it say only Sommlending can become Kai Lords? I've seen the books say that most Kai Lords are Sommlending, but not all of them!
I’m just going by what Joe Dever has in his books--while I have a grand appreciation for Mongoose’s work and a passing tolerance for the work of John Grant, I pretty much base my canon on Dever where I can, and in the Lone Wolf books all of the Kai Lords are (or were) Sommlending--thus the title, “Kai Lords of Sommerlund.” It’s in the Magnamund Companion. They’re Kai’s special, favored race, so it sort of makes sense that they’re the ones blessed with these abilities, and everyone else just gets to pout. After all, if the dwarves are the only one with their special earth magic, and Magicians of Dessi come from a magic bloodline--why wouldn’t the Sommlending be the only ones who can become Kai Lords? But play it any way you like, because it’s your campaign and your rules, and so long as you can justify it, I don’t see the harm in having Durenese Kai Lords and whatnot.
Lykaios wrote:It would be safe to say that many of the Kai Lords could be Duranese if not be of Duranese descent. It is stated that the royal families of Sommerlund and Duranor are very closely tied and that intermarriages happen all of the time. This could very well be true of the common folk.
I suppose if you have even a drop of Sommlending blood, the potential is there. It really depends on how you want to play it. Is it a blessing from Kai? Well, then anyone he blesses qualifies, Sommlending or not. Is it something for his chosen people? Well, how Sommlending do you have to be? More Sommlending than anything else? At least 50/50? Your great-great-great-grandpappy once slept in a Sommlending bed & breakfast? Hey, it’s your campaign. I’d say you have to at least have a little Sommlending blood in you to qualify, but if you’re half Sommlending and half Durenese, I’d say you have the potential to have the potential to be a Kai Lord (slices it pretty thin there, doesn’t it?).
North Star wrote:My feeling is that Kai Lords are born, not trained.
They’re pretty much like Jedi in that respect. It’s the same impression I get from them and all that’s written about them--Sommlending children are tested for the potential, and if they have it, they’re sent off to train. It’s a really small number of people.
North Star wrote:Therefore they could be Lyrian, Durenese or even Vassagonian, provided their talent is developed early enough.
That depends on how you think the potential to become a Kai Lord is seeded. As far as I can tell, it’s something Kai gave the Sommlending, his precious lil’ babies, and not to anyone else. As previously stated, however, your mileage may vary.
North Star wrote:Dessi Magicians and Shianti Sorcerers are born to it as well. Dwarven Gunners are another kettle of fish, but just like I want to know how a Shianti Sorcerer is around, I want to know how a non-Dwarf Gunner was trained.
Granted, and agreed. Roleplaying games breed exceptions. You will always find someone who’s off to play the exact type of character that the rules state is rare as hen’s teeth (Bloodlines in Vampire the Masquerade are a perfect example of this). If the potential for such a character is there, you can bet someone wants to play it. A good GM will make them justify it carefully, first.
Bewildered Badger wrote:I'd always assumed (and this is an assumption, so don't go jumping down my throat about it if you disagree) that the Kai disciplines were unique to the Sommerlending. After all, these were the people sent forth by the god Kai with the express purpose of stopping the Darklords. If the other races of Magnamund were capable of such abilities, surely some one would have undergone a similar experience to Sun Eagle's.
My point exactly.
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Postby Ghost Bear » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:22 pm

DuskFox wrote: They’re pretty much like Jedi in that respect. It’s the same impression I get from them and all that’s written about them--Sommlending children are tested for the potential, and if they have it, they’re sent off to train. It’s a really small number of people.
The odds of a non Sommlending Kai potential discovering that he can become a Kai are very slim though. To most, the Kai are mysterious, even within Sommerlund. To non-Sommlending, I'd imagine they'd be near legendary.

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Postby DuskFox » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:41 pm

Ghost Bear wrote:The odds of a non Sommlending Kai potential discovering that he can become a Kai are very slim though. To most, the Kai are mysterious, even within Sommerlund. To non-Sommlending, I'd imagine they'd be near legendary.
This sounds about right to me. I guess it's really up to the individual GM as to how much leeway they're willing to grant, but even if they allow it, the number should be a truly small fraction of Kai, who are a truly small fraction of Sommlending anyway. I would bet that even in their prime, the Kai were not particularly numerous, so we're looking at a theoretical handful of non-Sommlending Kai, in the neighborhood of 0-4.

However... ymmv. Perhaps there are as many non-Sommlending Kai as there are Sommlending Kai in your game. That's a GM's call.
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Postby toothill man » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:01 pm

bor gunners come from bor and are dwarfs if anyone else is found with the guns the whole nation with make sure they are ex-want to be gunners and as the dwarfs via the wandering mercinarys would know about it :twisted:
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Postby DuskFox » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:23 pm

toothill man wrote:bor gunners come from bor and are dwarfs if anyone else is found with the guns the whole nation with make sure they are ex-want to be gunners and as the dwarfs via the wandering mercinarys would know about it :twisted:
Except for the fact that a lot of humans in Magnamund have guns. Not just warriors, either. Like... barge owners. Try again.
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Postby columbob » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:37 pm

DuskFox wrote: Except for the fact that a lot of humans in Magnamund have guns. Not just warriors, either. Like... barge owners. Try again.
I don't remember that from the books, even less that "a lot of humans" carried guns. How about a few concrete examples?
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