EA Factbook question: The Pope

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EA Factbook question: The Pope

Postby KDLadage » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:48 pm

I see in the EA Factbook that women have more presence in the church but that the Pope is still a man and no woman has ever been placed in that role.

However, I distinctly recall Mr. Garibaldi stating that the Pope was a woman in the 4th season episode Racing Mars (the line was something like "He's not the Pope. He doesn't even look like her.")

This was then verified in an episode of Crusades when the Pope is given a feminine name -- Bernadette II -- the second would indicate that she was, at the very least, the second woman to hold the office; third if you count/believe the story of Pope Joan.

My understanding is that the female Pope thing is also verified in several of the B5 books that have been published. This is a relatively simple passage in the book, and should be easy to correct in future printings.
Last edited by KDLadage on Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EA Factbook question: The Pope

Postby frobisher » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:31 pm

KDLadage wrote:I see in the EA Factbook that women have more presence in the church but that the Pope is still a man and no woman has ever been placed in that role.

However, I distinctly recall Mr. Garibaldi stating that the Pope was a woman in the 4th season episode Racing Mars (the line was something like "He's not the Pope. He doesn't even look like her.")
And it's consistent (or could easily be). The EA Factbook is 2260 is it not (which is season 3)?

So we get Bernadette I in (say) the later half of 2260 maybe as a Clark appointee (in effect - yes I know the Vatican is indepedent of the EA but quite frankly that wouldn't stop Clark (and Psi Corps) and it would be a vital role to be filled with regards manipulating the population (I can't think of any religious leaders with as much sway that crosses national boundries).

Now Crusade season 1 is 2267, 6 years down the line. With the fall of Clark it's quite conceivable that Bernadette fell ill unexpectedly as did her predecessor.

Whilst I'm not claiming foul play historically, remember that we had three Popes in 1978 Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II, so we're not precident free here. And the current incumbant took the name "John Paul" as a tribute to his predecessor.

Look on it not as an error but an opportunity for devious background plotting :)
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Postby KDLadage » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:05 pm

Ooooo.... interesting scenario... This does have some possibilities, does it not...
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Postby LoneStranger » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:54 pm

And people wonder why I don't like religion, at any rate I can't confirm or deny any of this. If nothing else it shows that with as much "future history" as we have in Babylon 5, the occasional error does slip in. Oops oh well.
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Postby KDLadage » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:21 pm

LoneStranger wrote:And people wonder why I don't like religion
Please refrain from comments like this.

This whole section of EA history has nothing to do with religion as a topic. It has to do with an organization that has been dominated to men from its inception. We could be talking about the President of the N.R.A. to the Chaiman of the Augusta Golf Club, and the same error could be made here. There is no need to push religious buttons.
LoneStranger wrote:at any rate I can't confirm or deny any of this.
I checked some online sources (Lurker's Guide, and so on). Yes, there was a female Pope, yes it was referenced in Racing Mars, yes they gave her a name in Crusades...
LoneStranger wrote:If nothing else it shows that with as much "future history" as we have in Babylon 5, the occasional error does slip in. Oops oh well.
My intent was to point out an error so that it coule be corrected in future printings; I was not attempting to be critical of anything.
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Postby Greg Smith » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:48 pm

Of course if Bernadette I spoke out against Clark, her life expectancy would probably be considerably be reduced.
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Postby LoneStranger » Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:39 am

KDLadage I'm not tryin to start another argument here. When I said I didn't like religion I mean I don't like any of em, so I'm not saying anythng about preferring one religion over another (and no I'm not going to respond to any post trying to get me to go somewhere to see a service "to see what it's like").

As for the mistake I know your pointing it out to prevent it in the future, all I'm saying is there's so much there for them to work with the occasional error will seep in at some point. Best thing you can do is take it and run with it, and if you know it's wrong correct it if you are running a game, nothing more nothing less.
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Postby ShadowScout » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:03 am

KDLadage wrote:
LoneStranger wrote:And people wonder why I don't like religion
Please refrain from comments like this.
KD, please refrain from comments like this. :wink: Freedom of speech, you know? Asking people to not speak their minds (as long as they stay within their "borders" - see below) is Really not a good thing... as we all should know.
If you don't agree with something, say so and say why, if you think a comment unwise, say so and say why, but Never ask people to just stop telling how they feel about something.
(It'd be different if he wrote something like "...all religions are crap"; that's an absolute statement from an unqualified source, but something like "...I think all religions are crap" Must be allowed as it's a statement about his feelings, which are quite subjective, and one is Always qualified to speak about one's own mind... remember, as long as someone keeps his comments obviously subjective they cannot be wrong, it's only when someone claims objectiveness or absoluteness that he has stepped over the line and become abusive)

OK, enough semantical psychology, let's get back to the B5 pope...

frobisher, good one! :wink: Not only does it fix that thing, it also provides lots of fun to insert into a campaign, spewing the seeds for conspiracy theories right and left... :lol:
Greg Smith wrote:Of course if Bernadette I spoke out against Clark, her life expectancy would probably be considerably be reduced.
Possibly, though as she must have been come into service in '60 it would seem unlikely that the church would choose someone who'd speak out against Clark - remeber, he had all of earth firm in his grip then, and the church is a bit pragmatic, and would be unlikely to cause troubles, especially since then noone could know where Clark's reign would go.
Noo, I prefer frob's version... maybe with the added twist of her being appointed while in a bad state of health already - I heard the church has been known to make popes that weren't expected to live long, to buy time while they continued to search for someone better.
LoneStranger wrote:As for the mistake I know your pointing it out to prevent it in the future, all I'm saying is there's so much there for them to work with the occasional error will seep in at some point. Best thing you can do is take it and run with it, and if you know it's wrong correct it if you are running a game, nothing more nothing less.
Exactly. If someone finds an error, or some bit of info where game and show conflicts - just ignore the bad info.
Of course, it Should be posted here about it; this way others who might not be that observant can be made aware of the situation and think about their own response should one of their players point it out to them (and you have to expect things like that, nitpickers being everywhere... :wink: I should know, I'm one of them)
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Postby KDLadage » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:32 pm

Nevermind.
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:56 pm

I think you all miss what KDLadage has been try to say. It is obivous mistake which I pointed out to him. When We are are loyal fans of a TV show we know the smallest details of it. We only want to make the product better. It seems like Mongoose is just rolling out the product and not doing edting and not watching all of the shows. They are putting out inferior products cause they know we will buy them. I except a product about my favorite show to be a quality product not some massed produced crap and shove it out the door cause we want money now.
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Postby ShadowScout » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:41 pm

It seems like Mongoose is just rolling out the product and not doing edting and not watching all of the shows.
So you take the 5% they didn't do perfectly as an indication for That??
Sheesh.
And I thought I was over-perfectionistic...

Let's face it, most of their stuff is Great. Sure, some errors creep it, and some parts are more or less debatable; but still, these are only a small part of the whole. I have done proofreading for other stuff some time ago, and know how easily errors slip through even multiple layers of editing... even errors so easily spotted that the editors collectively slapped their foreheads while crying "how could we have missed That!?!" once some annoying reader points it out to them.

Of course I'd prefer if they did even more testing, especially with/by people who're "trouble" and annoy the Mongoose writers greaty with their opinions or nitpicking ways. (Hell, I'd volunteer in an instant to let some mongoose writers bounce ideas off my brain and debate with them, hunting down references left and right - especially once they get around to doing the Shadows and the Dilgar, the two races I spent most effort researching and thinking about so far for other projects).

But if they delayed all releases until they were perfect, they'd be out of business pretty soon, since they do have to pay their rent and salaries (nasty world that it is, you actually have to work for your money - it annoys me to no end too; I'd much rather spend all my time alternating internet B5W discussions and playing games... :wink: ). So I'm going to accept the 90 or 95% good stuff they do now, and point the not so good stuff out to them, for erratas or maybe a second edition half a decade down the road. But I don't scold them too much for just being human... :wink: :roll:

So, now that this is out of my system, let's agree that it was Agent-1's bad, and Mongoose's because they didn't catch it. Use frobisher's suggestion to explain it away in your campaigns, or just make a note in your EA factbook correcting that paragraph, and move on to more constructive and interesting discussions, yes? :)
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Postby ronbogard » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:28 pm

I agree with you 100% ShadowScout.
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Postby El Cid » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:52 pm

Please continue to post "errors".

Please continue to post "errors".

That will make future products better.

As for the "Pope" angle for some scenarios, I like the idea.

I wouldn't agree that Clark or any group would have the Collage of Cardinals in their pocket but you never know. There was a period when there were two people claiming to be the "REAL" pope at the same time and wars have been started over less.

Now, how do I get my players involved?
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Postby frobisher » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:16 pm

El Cid wrote:I wouldn't agree that Clark or any group would have the Collage of Cardinals in their pocket but you never know.
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Postby LoneStranger » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:44 am

Just a couple of quick things.......

For the quick debate of "freedom of speech" vs "is it appropriate" I'm inclined to go with freedom of speech. Now that includes comments about whether something should be said or not, everyone is free to believe whatever they want.

As far as the errors in the book go, I'd like to see them corrected in future printings but honestly I don't see it happening. At the very least people who know about the Mongoose boards can come here and look for any errors made to see if they've been cleared up.

At least that's my take on it.
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Postby Guest » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:24 am

Shadowscout: How many free products do you get to speak the party line?
Mongoose will not change because they are making money off bad products and half test stuff. Example: FASA

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Postby Greg Smith » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:57 am

Anonymous wrote:Shadowscout: How many free products do you get to speak the party line?
Mongoose will not change because they are making money off bad products and half test stuff. Example: FASA

GASP Gamers against Shitty Poducts
That's uncalled for.

If Mongoose's stuff was bad, no-one would buy it. I happen to think that its actually very good (cf Chameleon Eclectic's B5 RPG). And if the mistake in question hadn't been mentioned here, I would never have known. Would you?

Oh, FASA stuff was of a very high quality too, IMHO. What did you think was so bad about their games, specifically?
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Postby hassanisabbah » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:25 am

Anonymous wrote:Shadowscout: How many free products do you get to speak the party line?
Mongoose will not change because they are making money off bad products and half test stuff. Example: FASA

GASP Gamers against Shitty Poducts
Try using sentence construction properly to construct a logical arguement, rather than a statement of insult and opinionation. Also have the guts to put your name to a statement, so that the reply can be off board.

What half tested stuff? All the games I have work, and I have only had one or two questions to raise, and found that I had mearly missed them. If you are refering to typos and gramatical errors, then remember you Where are they raking in the cash (surely they'd go for a industry that actually had room for huge profiteering).

Or if you can't be constructive, moderately clever or witty, F**K OFF :twisted:
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Postby frobisher » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:39 am

Anonymous wrote:Shadowscout: How many free products do you get to speak the party line?
Mongoose will not change because they are making money off bad products and half test stuff. Example: FASA

GASP Gamers against Shitty Poducts
There seems to be a pattern developing here - Anonymous posts to gratuitously insult other posters...

It's easily fixed though - can someone at Mongoose turn off Annoymous posting rights please before this gets any worse..? Nipping the problem in the bud so to speak.
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Postby ShadowScout » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:18 pm

Shadowscout: How many free products do you get to speak the party line?
None so far. Maybe I should ask them for some? :wink:

But I write what I think - I always do, and I do it for all to see, not from hiding - what's more then can be written about you, Mr.Guest!
Mongoose will not change because they are making money off bad products and half test stuff. Example: FASA
GASP Gamers against Shitty Poducts
If you think that... your mind, your choice.
I give them more credit for thinking ahead - everyone in this industry should be able to see the long term problems of That one, especialls since several companies have already proven that while you can make money off bad stuff, you can't keep making money from it, because sooner or later your buyers will leave in disappointment.
So I think that the guys at mongoose will pay attention. Actually if you watch the forums closely, you can even find one or two instances where they already have reacted to fan input... (hint - Technomage supplement, Fiery Trial part two...)
Greg Smith wrote:Oh, FASA stuff was of a very high quality too, IMHO. What did you think was so bad about their games, specifically?
FASA wan't half bad, at least in the good old days.
OK, they had ridicolously low weapons ranges in Battletech, but since they are based upon japanese anime mecha combat that's no surprise, but staying in character. I rather liked them back then... But then they spoiled it; the introduction of the clans was problematic (though if played them with the strage "honor" limitations against IS tech, it was actually still fun! Pity all that went overboard during the next few years of storyline...), and the "shiny new tech boom" that followed made the game a farce that drowned in an avalance of strange new mechs and techs. Killed fun pretty dead; and that was when I got out of playing it.
Shadowrun became strange when they revealed the links with Earthdawn - some people just didn't like it anymore; though that was more a matter of personal taste.
I think that, especially the Battletech stuff, was what he meant. And true, if taken somewhat out of context.
frobisher wrote:It's easily fixed though - can someone at Mongoose turn off Annoymous posting rights please before this gets any worse..? Nipping the problem in the bud so to speak.
Probably won't work. There are ways for trolls to get past Any ban (fluctuating ISP's from dial-up providers, anonymizer software, etc.) Not worth the effort... just let everyone choose to react or ignore such posts as they wish. Maybe he'll get bored and annoy someone else...
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