Lightning Hand

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Smiling Fox
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Lightning Hand

Postby Smiling Fox » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:38 pm

Is the damage from Lightning Hand electrical or magical in nature or perhaps both? Would it pass a Helghast's damage resistance?
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Postby mthomason » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:42 pm

My call would be that you would have to have electrical resistance to resist it - I would interpret that the magic creates the electricity and the target is struck by the resulting electrical bolt, not a magical one (in the same way that using a spell to drop a rock on someone's head shouldn't be affected by magical resistance)
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Postby Smiling Fox » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:05 pm

So it would be useless against a helghast?
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Postby mthomason » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:07 pm

Weeeelll...

It *is* created by magic... so by the letter of the rules, it ought to work.

I just don't like the "physics" behind it :)

It depends whether you interpret it like I do, that the magic affects nature and nature does the damage, or whether you decide that it's actually a magical effect that looks and acts like electricity.
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Postby KirinDave » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:05 pm

mthomason wrote: It depends whether you interpret it like I do, that the magic affects nature and nature does the damage, or whether you decide that it's actually a magical effect that looks and acts like electricity.
Well, by that interpretation, almost no spells do magical damage. Heck, you could use that interpretation to say the bolts from a wizard's staff are non-magical as well. Slippery slope and all... You end up with nothing but magic weapons doing magical damage, which suddenly makes Helghasts remarkably powerful...
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Postby mthomason » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:29 pm

KirinDave wrote: Well, by that interpretation, almost no spells do magical damage. Heck, you could use that interpretation to say the bolts from a wizard's staff are non-magical as well. Slippery slope and all... You end up with nothing but magic weapons doing magical damage, which suddenly makes Helghasts remarkably powerful...
Thats pretty much how I like it :)

As I said, by the letter of the rules it'll work. I'm just weird when it comes to magic and like to tone it down as much as possible :)
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Postby August » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:43 am

I can see where Matt is coming with this, but that is not the Lone Wolf way! :)

Magic is not toned down in Magnamund; quite the opposite. :)

Magical spells that cause damage are considered magical damage even if they have another type associated with them. Thus, Lightning Hand is an 'electrical' spell but does damage as a magical effect as well. If a creature is vulnerable to one or the other, they are vulnerable to the spell itself (sich as Helghasts).

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Postby Smiling Fox » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:09 am

That settles it then. My BoCS can fry as many helghasts as he wants :twisted: (If the helghasts like it or not I don't care about)
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Postby mthomason » Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:41 pm

Mongoose August wrote:I can see where Matt is coming with this, but that is not the Lone Wolf way! :)
Yup, I have to admit I often let personal beliefs overrule canon in my head :D

Thanks, August! :)
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Postby ParanoidObsessive » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:02 pm

Think about it this way - in the Magnamund Companion, Banedon is able to use Lightning Hand to wound a Helghast. This means, quite simply, that no matter HOW you view magic, the answer to the question "Can the spell damage a Helghast?" is yes.

BUT, that still does leave room for the "magic creates nature" mechanic. In other words, Lightning Hand DOES create non-magical lightning. But because of the unnatural ORIGIN of that lightning, it still has enough of a magical "charge" to it to do the damage.

Or, to put it another way, if Grey Star were to use Elementalism to create fire, that fire would be non-magical. But since it was CREATED through magic, it would have the ability to wound a Helghast as well, whereas throwing an oil lantern at one would probably have no effect.
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Postby FallingPhoenix » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:39 pm

ParanoidObsessive wrote:Or, to put it another way, if Grey Star were to use Elementalism to create fire, that fire would be non-magical. But since it was CREATED through magic, it would have the ability to wound a Helghast as well, whereas throwing an oil lantern at one would probably have no effect.
Only if he was still magically manipulating the fire, IMO. If he just created it and then left it to burn (assuming it was actually burning something and not just existing on the stone floor), it would be counted as non-magical.
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No, No, No

Postby Stormcrow the White Wolf » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:30 pm

On both a damage reduction/game mechanics and fluff explanation. Since Lone Wolf is based on the d20 game system, we have to go the higher source of the SRD for reference. Each spell that causes damage has an energy or damage type, like electricity, acid, fire, that sort of thing. If a creature had resistance or immunity to that energy or damage type, they subtract that resistance or ignore the energy completely of the spell. The same applies to breath weapons, or other magical attack forms (like the acid/cold aura of Agarashi). Now then, if a spell does normal piercing, slashing, or blugeoning damage, the Helghast's damage reduction would apply. But not in the case of weapons possessing a magical enhancement bonus, energy damage from someone hitting a Helghast with a burning torch, flaming oil, that sort of thing, as they are doing either magic damage or energy damage.

So Banedon can blast Helghasts all day long, unless they gain some type of magic resistance, electrical resistance, or he kills himself by casting too many spells. On the Fluff side, magic was granted for human and other's usage by the Gods of good and evil, and acts as the primary leveler in conflicts between the two sides, as well as the balance (psyhcic power is another thing altogether). Otherwise, Banedon becomes a crispy smoked mesquite sandwich after he runs of Endurance counterspelling the Helghasts' fire bolts. Lowering the power of magic in a fantasy world to affect supernatural foes turns every encounter with any type of them to a futile struggle. Witness the fact that every class (other than the NPC suppport classes of the Warrior) in the Lone Wolf system has some type of supernatural power or magical ability. Heroes are designed to be outstanding, not just some moron who picks up a sword or does grocery shopping to continue his mercantile skills. Case in point-Lone Wolf. He wouldn't be very heroic if he was a gas station attendant fighting the Darklords, and he always stayed one?
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Postby Bewildered Badger » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:23 am

IIRC, don't the rules for Damage Resistance say that it DOESN'T offer protection from any form of energy, magical or natural in origin?
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:39 pm

I'm with Bewildered Badger on this one: if you go back to d20 core rules for reference damage resistance never stops energy damage from spells (by which I mean elemental damage such as fire or electricity or cold etc). And energy resistance never stops physical damage frm weapons. A nice and simple distinction (although some spells do physical damage rather than energy such as using telekinesis to hurl something at someone, the object does the damage, not the spell).
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Postby Smiling Fox » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:43 pm

I have another problem. The text on page 24 seems to indicate that there is a saving throw involved with the Power Word of Energy, but in the ruling no saving throw is mentioned. My personal guess would be a Ref Save to receive half damage. It would not seem unfair.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:44 pm

he text on page 24 states that:
Words of Power sometimes allow a saving throw
Now to me this means that if a saving throw is allowed then it will be stated in the word of power's description and nowhere in the word of energy's description did I see anything about a saving throw.

The Grand Word of Denial allows a fortitude saving throw
The Word and Grand Word of Dominion allows a willpower saving throw.
The Word and Grand Word of Entrapment allow a reflex saving throw.

The other Words of Power do not allow any saving throw (although I may need to double check that).
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Postby Ghost Bear » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:50 pm

Smiling Fox is referring to the text right below that, which cites an example of the Word of Energy being used against a group of Drakkarim.

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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09 pm

Yep, said I probably needed to double check that.
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