Weapons Table.

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Weapons Table.

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:22 pm

Is there an error on the weapons table in the core rule book? According to it a morningstar is both cheaper and lighter than a mace, yet does the same amount of damage and is more versitile, doing bludgeoning and piercing damage, whilst the mace only bludgeons.

Also, given that there is a -4 penalty on Heal checks without any equipment, should the Healers kit really give a +2 bonus?
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Re: Weapons Table.

Postby Winter Wolf » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:40 am

Guest wrote:Is there an error on the weapons table in the core rule book? According to it a morningstar is both cheaper and lighter than a mace, yet does the same amount of damage and is more versitile, doing bludgeoning and piercing damage, whilst the mace only bludgeons.
There could well be I don't see it being cheaper to produce a mace with an extra section of chain in it than without.
Guest wrote:Also, given that there is a -4 penalty on Heal checks without any equipment, should the Healers kit really give a +2 bonus?
It does seem a bit strange but given the relative lack of magic healing in Maganmund I'll take all of the advantages I can. :)
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Re: Weapons Table.

Postby columbob » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:26 pm

Winter Wolf wrote:
Guest wrote:Is there an error on the weapons table in the core rule book? According to it a morningstar is both cheaper and lighter than a mace, yet does the same amount of damage and is more versitile, doing bludgeoning and piercing damage, whilst the mace only bludgeons.
There could well be I don't see it being cheaper to produce a mace with an extra section of chain in it than without.
Just to clear things here, a morning star doesn't have a chain, you're probably thinking of a flail here.

A morning star is very similar to a mace, except that it's a cylindrical head instead of a ball, and it usually sports some spiky bits all around it.

Flails can have one of more heads swinging at the end of some chains attached to the handle. A lot more dangerous for the user.
Up the Irons!
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Re: Weapons Table.

Postby Winter Wolf » Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:26 pm

columbob wrote: Just to clear things here, a morning star doesn't have a chain, you're probably thinking of a flail here.

A morning star is very similar to a mace, except that it's a cylindrical head instead of a ball, and it usually sports some spiky bits all around it.

Flails can have one of more heads swinging at the end of some chains attached to the handle. A lot more dangerous for the user.
I don't think so...


http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Me ... lails.html
http://www.needmorestuff.com/frprecussivew.htm
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Re: Weapons Table.

Postby columbob » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:02 pm

Winter Wolf wrote:
columbob wrote: Just to clear things here, a morning star doesn't have a chain, you're probably thinking of a flail here.

A morning star is very similar to a mace, except that it's a cylindrical head instead of a ball, and it usually sports some spiky bits all around it.

Flails can have one of more heads swinging at the end of some chains attached to the handle. A lot more dangerous for the user.
I don't think so...


http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Me ... lails.html
http://www.needmorestuff.com/frprecussivew.htm
To back my argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_%28weapon%29
Up the Irons!
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Postby Winter Wolf » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:15 pm

Your argument may be sound but it means a flail in common usage now certainly any RPG books I have that put in pictures of Morning Stars show a very spiky single headed flail. See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail

No doubt however August will pop up to explain that he did no this when he wrote the book. :wink:
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:09 pm

I think i can clarify something.

Because both , columbob and winter wolf are right.

In common , in 99% of all fantasy RPG`s and historical works a flail = morningstar = spiked ball on a chain.

But because LW is based on D&D 3rd Ed. , August used the Moringstar description of D&D , morningstar = a mace with a wooden staff and a spiked ball , NO chain.

If you don`t believe me , take a look at this : :)
D&D players Handbook 3.5 Ed. page 120.

Bye

PS: Great job on LW RPG,August. Thanks from a big fan.
Guest

Weapons table.

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:55 pm

Even if we accept that a morningstar is a mace with no chain, plus added spiky bits, I still don't see how that would be lighter and cheaper than the regular mace.
When I first played "Flight from the Dark" all those years ago, the first Discipline I chose was Weaponskill, and the randomly selected weapon was the mace, so I've had a healthy respect for them since then!
Many thanks to August and all at Mongoose for the nostalgia trip! :)
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Postby columbob » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:20 pm

Anonymous wrote:I think i can clarify something.

Because both , columbob and winter wolf are right.

In common , in 99% of all fantasy RPG`s and historical works a flail = morningstar = spiked ball on a chain.

But because LW is based on D&D 3rd Ed. , August used the Moringstar description of D&D , morningstar = a mace with a wooden staff and a spiked ball , NO chain.

If you don`t believe me , take a look at this : :)
D&D players Handbook 3.5 Ed. page 120.

Bye

PS: Great job on LW RPG,August. Thanks from a big fan.
Yeah, seriously, I think this will be an eternal debate for RPG'ers and medieval buffs the world over. :)
Up the Irons!
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Postby August » Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:10 pm

Ola, all! First, thanks for the kind words. This game has been a blast to write for.

While I understand the debate aqnd the concern over the weight, price and stats for a Morningstar over a mace, I decided to go with the SRD details verbatim as the game is a d20 product and I didn't think changing something as fundamental as a couple of basic fantasy weapons from their already given descriptions was necessary.

That said, please feel free to follow my standard advice in situations like this: change it. If something does not fit your game, alter it until it does.

Take care all,
-August
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Morning Star, Flail, and Spiked balls

Postby Stormcrow the White Wolf » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:38 pm

Ok, here is my two cents.

The mace, is a metal or metal headed club fashioned into a flat impact surface to inflict mass blunt force trauma to an area impacted. Some maces have flared points or flanges to increase the trauma area, and also inflict cuts. A morning star is and was a round ball on the end of a 4 to 8 foot shaft covered in spikes to increase the physical damage done to an enemy. This weapons was used on horseback and by infantry to knock off knights and men-at-arms off horses and inflict heavier damage than a mace alone. In many cases, the morning star was wielded two handed, much like a spear or other polearm weapons.

The flail is a weapon derived from simple farming tools, converted into military use like many tools for urban and peasant militia from the 8th century to the 17th. The first war flails were simply two lengths of iron shod wood connected together by stout rope or metal chain, and the weapon continued to evolve as warfare became more advanced. Some medieval guy decided that iron shod wood was really silly, and decided to dump the wood in favor of steel. Another guy thought that the flail the second guy designed wasn't butch enough, so he added another head to the flail. However, he found out (after losing a bunch of teeth due to the second head moving in the other direction) that the shaft of the flail was too short. Unfortunately for him, the third guy to continue the path of flail advancement killed him with a rock. This guy, having more ingenuity, lengthed the shaft to about 8 to 10 feet, and this gave him the leverage to swing both heads at an enemy, and it worked much better than his rock. The fourth guy to advance flail development really liked spiked balls, so he killed the third guy with his morning star (and the third guy's rock was nowhere to be found, so the fourth guy had to develop the third guys flail). He found he didn't like the two stout ends on the shaft, and replaced the 8 ft shaft and its two heads with a 2 to 3 foot handle and a spiked ball connected to the handle. He really liked this flail :twisted: ,and called it a chain flail or mace. However, the fourth guy was known for his skill with a morning star, and he could never convince any of his buddies that the chain flail was a different weapon.

The fifth guy, who was the brother of the third, found his dead brother on the battlefield :( , along with his family heirloom, the rock. He grew extremly angry that his brother and his rock were covered in blood, so he developed the new flail. This flail also had a spiked ball, but it had two of them, and as all guys know, two balls are better than one. So the fith guy tracked down the fourth, who had earned a knighthood for killing the third guy, and they engaged in a battle of spiked balls on chains on the ends of a stick. However, they failed to notice the sixth guy involved in the development and abandonment of flails, who shot both of them with a couple of longbow arrows, and the two died without knowing whose flail was bigger. The sixth guy laughed at the two dead foes, until his skull was caved in by the third brother of the third guy who developed the original two headed flail, with his family heirloom, the rock.

All of this goes to show you that no matter how much technology you develop, it still sometimes comes down to which guy has the rock and the other guy who doesn't. :twisted:
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Postby taylor » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:06 am

As was said above, a mace is fixed to the shaft, whilst a flail isn't fixed, whether it moves via a single link or a length of chain.

Sites like by the sword are not historically accurate in any but the most vague of ways. On the other hand, sites like www.armor.com, www.myarmoury.com, www.albionarmorers.com and www.swordforum.com are much more accurate.
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Postby Nerethel » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:01 pm

Stormcrow, that was a really entertaining read! I'm using your explaination for my games, taking the viewpoint of, "it's a nasty weapon that can really hurt your head" approach. A mace, flail and morningstar are just words, really; definitions used to describe weapons that, in the end, are just interesing appliances that are used to hurt people.
A spiked ball on a stick, ball and chain (not a wife, a medieval weapon), or a spray-can of stuff that stings the eyes can all be called a mace by the person wielding it, as they're likely the one who will use it on you if you disagree. I'm not one to argue in favor of receiving pain.

Just roll some dice and apply damage, as needed.

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Postby Confused Wolf » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:22 pm

And always remember: Weapons don't kill people, people do

...with psychic combat! :wink:
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:04 pm

Blimey. I'm more confuse now than I was when I started!

OK, I can accept that what I thought was a morningstar (haft, chain, and one or more weights) is really just a type of flail, and that a morningstar is essentially just a mace with added spikes. I still do not see how this can be lighter and cheaper than a regular mace, though, so I'm going to swap the weight and cost of these two weapons.

Of course, if anyone has a feasible explanation I'd be fascinated to hear it.

Regarding the healers kit, I do think it odd that a character with one effectivlley gets a six point advantage over a character with the same skill and attribute scores who isn't so equipped. Maybe if there were two kits, a standard one that just allowed you to avoid the four point penalty, plus a mastercrafted one that gave a further plus two. It'd probably be very expensive though.
munari

Postby munari » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:04 pm

I have absolutely no evidence for this, but my thought was always that "morningstar" was more of a description of the spiked ball rather than how it was connected to the shaft. It was called "morningstar" because with the spikes, it looked like a star. Flail, in my mind, was the shaft with a chain and a ball, because in my mind, it "flailed" about more since it was on a chain. Mace was a fancy club with a metal head with perhaps just a big ball or some flanges.

That's what I thought as a kid and still pretty much do because I hadn't put much thought or research into it.
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Re: Weapons Table.

Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:38 pm

Guest wrote:Also, given that there is a -4 penalty on Heal checks without any equipment, should the Healers kit really give a +2 bonus?
I would say yes, however....

One of the Kai Lord's Healing tier abilities is the ability to perform first aid without the -4 for not using a healer's kit. If you change it back to +2 then you need to rewqork that ability as well and that egts complicated (because it's the ability to do something without equipment, not the ability to gain an equipment bonus without the equipment). Even if you change it to "can do first aid without having to use stuff like bandages/dissinfectants etc" it still gets really complicated to rework.
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:52 pm

Anonymous wrote:But because LW is based on D&D 3rd Ed. , August used the Moringstar description of D&D , morningstar = a mace with a wooden staff and a spiked ball , NO chain.
But that's just a mace (a spiky mace but still a mace). Now a sword is a sword is a sword in the LW RPG just as a spear is a spear is a spear and a mace is a mace is a mace. It even clearly states in the Darklands supplement that if they created different rules for every possible equipment variation that'd cause unneccessary complication and the beauty of equipment in the LWRPG is it's similarity (and that equipment variations are only there when completely unavoidable).

And for those of you who need reminding....

Back in the dark depths of recent history there was a roleplaying game called Advanced D&D (1st edition). The weapons table included a morning star (which required a lot of flailing space to swing and was noted as being alternatively known as the holy sprinkler and assorted other names). It also included flails (which were clearly thresing implements that farmers used which had been modified for war and were, thus, inferior to the morningstar which was actualy a weapon).

Somewhere between the PHb and Deities & Demigods the distinction got confused and someone decided (Erol Otus when he did the bugbear war god's illustration?) that the morningstar was "just a spiky mace". Ever since then american gamers have had no idea what a morningstar was (probably because they were not in common use on the american continent in the middle ages). Whereas us european gamers actualy know the difference (apart from a few misguided individuals who only know stuff from american AD&D books and think all broadswords are basket hilted single edged cavalry sabres).

A mace is a mace.

A flail is a tool (that has a rediculously short chain and can be modified for combat).

A morningstar is a weapon (which has a longer chain than a flail and is intended for battke). It's not a mace!

Now historicaly speaking some argue that the head of the weapon is the morningstar and that the presence (or lack thereof) of a chain is irrelevant. However, in gaming terms the presence (or lack thereof) of a chain is a much larger distinction than just a spiky mace head as opposed to a flanged mace head.

In all games that I run a morningstar is a weapon and not a mace. In d20 games flails become morningstars and the morningstar on the weapons table ceases to exist. If players want a spiked mace then it's spiky but it's not a cheaper kind of mace just because it's got "something extra".
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