So ... Book 18?

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WritingWolf
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby WritingWolf » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:10 pm

Hi Clegane

I totally agree with you on the fact that if you paid up-front you should receive said services, and as far as I am aware Mongoose will indeed provide them, just not at the speed they had hoped. That was the point of my post - timing. But yes, they MUST provide them. It is irritating having to wait, but they should come.

Of course if they don't I'll be saying something very different.

Actually that's an interesting point you made regarding a kick-starter and the Mega Deal comparisons. What are the rules on KS meeting deadlines?

Peter
Clegane
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Clegane » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:44 pm

WritingWolf wrote: Actually that's an interesting point you made regarding a kick-starter and the Mega Deal comparisons. What are the rules on KS meeting deadlines?

Peter
The long and short if it is that there are none. KS is basically a 'fund at your own risk' mechanic, which is why it is often difficult for small unknowns to even raise 5 grand while studios like inExile and Obsidian rake in millions and millions of dollars. People are more willing to commit when the project is run by a well-known, reliable industry professional.

But if a KS gets 10K in pledges and never produces a product, there isn't really a recourse for the backers. Because you aren't technically paying for a product so much as freely offering financial support, for which you may or may not be given an eventual 'reward'.


Quite unlike the Megadeal actually, where we were expressly promised an exchange of eventual goods for money up-front.
Random Code
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Random Code » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:50 am

Clegane wrote:KS is basically a 'fund at your own risk' mechanic...

But if a KS gets 10K in pledges and never produces a product, there isn't really a recourse for the backers. Because you aren't technically paying for a product so much as freely offering financial support, for which you may or may not be given an eventual 'reward'.
I'm sorry but that's simply not true. From Kickstarter's website:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't.


A lot of people think like you do Clegane but it's based on misinformation and/or people not reading KS' own T&Cs. Projects do have a legal obligation to deliver on all rewards that backers have paid for. Now in practical terms you're relying on the Creators goodwill to hand out refunds as in most cases the project delivery dates are past the (usual) 3 months that your credit card provider will allow for claims against transactions. If a creator/publisher doesn't pay out then the other option is contacting the trading bodies of the appropriate country (likely messy considering you may both be in different countries but simpler if you're in the same - still lots of work though) or taking personal (legal) action against them. Most people simply won't bother due to the amounts involved and the time and effort required to chase these things but customers *could* organise themselves into a group if they were so aggrieved. This is really no different from any other 'failed' transaction where your credit card company or bank are no longer involved - ie, you'd have to do this kind of leg work to fight for a refund if someone was unwilling to pay you back for products not delivered as part of a more tradtional transaction. At least that's roughly how things work in the UK, I don't know where you're based but this whole "You aren't paying for a product on KS when you back a project" is really not accurate.
Clegane wrote:Quite unlike the Megadeal actually, where we were expressly promised an exchange of eventual goods for money up-front.
It actually isn't - ie, refer to my quote of the the Kickstarter T&Cs above, as both agree to provide goods (assuming such things are stated and promised in a KS reward tier). Also, so much time has passed since you and I paid for the Megadeal that the usual avenues of recourse in obtaining refunds (eg, contacting your credit card company for them to pursue the transaction on your behalf) are no longer available. Just like KS, if Mongoose don't deliver, you'll have to rely on their goodwill to refund you, contact the relevant trade organisation, and/or take legal action. Or walk away.

At least that's my experience (having taken someone to court previously) and understanding of the matter.

Anyway, I hope that at least clarifies the Kickstarter matter.
Morloki
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Morloki » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:32 pm

So probably the Kick-starter is not the best option nevertheless as long as the situation remains the same we can't even expect a book per year. I would like to know what is taking so long for them to edit the missing books and in which ways, if any, the process could get a boost. At the end we all want the same and faster than now :P
Random Code
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Random Code » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:18 pm

Morloki wrote:So probably the Kick-starter is not the best option nevertheless as long as the situation remains the same we can't even expect a book per year. I would like to know what is taking so long for them to edit the missing books and in which ways, if any, the process could get a boost. At the end we all want the same and faster than now :P
Well, there is no option now. We won't be getting any more Lone Wolf books from Mongoose.
jolt
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby jolt » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:57 pm

Holy freackin' hell! Hundreds of dollars in the Megadeal down the drain. Everything I've heard about Mr. dever indicates that he's a great guy but I have trouble believing he's going to absorb the need to fulfill the remaining 15 books to the Megadeal customers. Does he even know who we are?
Random Code
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Random Code » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:59 pm

jolt wrote:I have trouble believing he's going to absorb the need to fulfill the remaining 15 books to the Megadeal customers. Does he even know who we are?
Where have you read/heard that this is going to happen? It's not been mentioned at all. Mega Deal customers are Mongoose customers and not Joe Dever ones. I haven't seen any information even infering what you've stated in the above quote.
Clegane
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Clegane » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:00 pm

jolt wrote:Holy freackin' hell! Hundreds of dollars in the Megadeal down the drain. Everything I've heard about Mr. dever indicates that he's a great guy but I have trouble believing he's going to absorb the need to fulfill the remaining 15 books to the Megadeal customers. Does he even know who we are?
Of course not. Nor would he ever be likely to so obligate himself.

As per Msprange's announcement, Dever may possibly be considering giving those of us who were shafted with megadeals some nonspecific 'Lone Wolf material' to make up for the loss.

Which could very easily be a tshirt or a Lone Wolf mouse pad. :roll: I sure as hell would not interpret that to mean 15 books.
Random Code
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Random Code » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:03 pm

Clegane wrote:As per Msprange's announcement, Dever may possibly be considering giving those of us who were shafted with megadeals some nonspecific 'Lone Wolf material' to make up for the loss.

Which could very easily be a tshirt or a Lone Wolf mouse pad. :roll: I sure as hell would not interpret that to mean 15 books.
Yeah, Jolt, what Clegane has put here. That's about the size of it. You won't be getting the rest of the books sent to you by Joe Dever under your Mega Deal... Now I am guessing/hoping that he's going to be working on picking up publication going forward, we'll have to purchase those like any other customer though.
jolt
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby jolt » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:32 pm

I got it from Matt's post. This part here:

Megadeal Customers
Some of you have uncompleted Megadeal subscriptions. Regretably, we are now unable to proceed with these beyond Book 17. After consulting with Mr Dever to find a fair resolution to this, we have both agreed to the following;

*snip*

It is our understanding that Mr Dever is going to endeavour to provide everyone owed Books 18 onwards with Lone Wolf material.


While, admittedly, "Lone Wolf material" could mean anything, if it isn't about the books then I don't see how that could be considered a "fair resolution" considering the topic being specifically addressed here is the inability of Mongoose to fulfill the rest of the MegaDeal orders. Sending a Lone Wolf bumper sticker is just going to piss people off more than if he did nothing.

If it's not about the books then he shouldn't have posted anything about the MegaDeal orders at all. No one is going to consider a bumper sticker a fair resolution.
August1
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby August1 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:03 pm

As understandably upset as you are, Jolt, let's be fair for a moment here.

Mr. Dever was in no way part of the trouble here. He has always done right by his fans (and I can, on demand, produce said legion of fans who would back that statement up). I His mention at the end of that discussion was intended only to note the fact that he has every desire to see you all compensated for this troubling loss in whatever way he can.

He isn't doing this out of obligation, of which he has none. He is doing so out of affection for his fan base. Whatever other resolution comes of this situation, he -also- wants to make you you all get something for the trouble.

I cannot for the life of me see how you could find any negative in that, good sir. :)

For the Kai,
-A
Random Code
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Random Code » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:05 pm

Yeah, Jolt, I can sort of see where you're coming from although I would be really surprised if it materialises into another book run. Remember, Mongoose are offering a refund (of sorts) so for Joe to then say you're getting something similar for free off of him would be very unlikely. It may be that we'll get Book 18 'free' but that in itself is a big assumption, I reckon.

It's perhaps more likely that Mongoose may be mistaken completely; I'm fairly leery of the "It's our understanding..." start to the bit about Joe's Lone Wolf material. Sounds a bit wishy-washy in my opinion and may not have been something ironed out in any detail.

We'll have to see.
Last edited by Random Code on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WritingWolf
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby WritingWolf » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:07 pm

Wow :shock:

Ok I have asked about those of us who pre-ordered Book 18 as that's still potentially money down the drain (nothing like the Mega Deals sadly).

Really really sad this has happened. Unfortunately, it looks like Clegane's worst fears were true. I don't think we will ever find out exactly what has happened, but I think we can all guess.

Really sad for JD - after it is his world which has been ended here. As for Mongoose? Well we shall see. Not sure what to say to be honest - and as the boards are closing soon, not much more too say. Just very disappointed - and angry, at what has happened.
August1
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby August1 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:16 pm

I know what you mean, WritingWolf. You aren't alone in this.

Just stay tuned to Project Aon for more!

-A
WritingWolf
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby WritingWolf » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:18 pm

Just gone back onto it (been awhile) - I didn't know they had made the books ready for an e-book. Now that is something I am interested in! :D
jolt
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby jolt » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:11 am

Random Code wrote: It's perhaps more likely that Mongoose may be mistaken completely; I'm fairly leery of the "It's our understanding..." start to the bit about Joe's Lone Wolf material. Sounds a bit wishy-washy in my opinion and may not have been something ironed out in any detail.
Then it should never have been brought up in the first place. In fact, the entire MegaDeal Customers section of that post should have been left out. If that whole section of the post is to be called into question the it makes me leery of accepting anything Matt is saying there; including converting the order into Mongoose dollars (or pounds).

August1: I never accused Mr. Dever of anything nor even implied such. The only time he's mentioned in my post is in the quote from Matt. Please don't put accusations in my mouth so you can get on a high horse and defend against them while ignoring the actual point of my post. I highly resent that you've done so. I don't give a rat's ass if you know Mr. Dever or not; I don't need your platitudes and head-patting saying, "There, there, it's going to be alright," while offering no evidence that it will be. The fact that you made up an entire argument that I never put forth makes me skeptical of anything you say anyways. It would probably be best if you just skip over any of the (few) remaining posts I might make here (that certainly what I plan to do with yours) as I don't need you making up more stuff that I didn't say.
August1
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby August1 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:22 am

Jolt, if I misunderstood you, I apologize. Text can be a terrible medium for understanding the tone and context of a comment. I certainly wasn't accusing you of anything, sir, and I never thought you were being accusatory either. I was just trying to clarify.

Again, sorry to have offended.

-August
Last edited by August1 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vassagonian
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby Vassagonian » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:04 am

The problems are:
It does not make economic sense for Joe D to release any books for MegaDeal customers only, if they going to print more books, might as well sell as many as they can

Unless theres something in the contract Joe isnt under any obligation to do anything. (I seem to recall last decade there was something about the final books being written, then again ho ho ho MegaDeal customers were promised 6 novels by other authors)

I hope Joe does create something for the MegaDeal customers but its likely to be a deck of playing cards or similar methinks.

Mongoose has tried Kickstarter before and appears not to have been successful
KS is a good idea, but the real problem here is, are you going to KS 16 books in go to make it worthwhile?
Especially given the shenanigans that have already taken place.

-------------------------------

At this stage my real question for Mongoose/Joe is, why werent the remaining 5 books made a priority (over the last 7 years) since they arent available on Project Aon. People might be willing to KS those final 5.


**I made a point to August suggested he might want to re-word something which he did, so his post a couple down from here may not make as much sense.
Last edited by Vassagonian on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
BlackCat
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby BlackCat » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:12 am

So, Mongoose drops the LW line. Will we ever see the ending of the series? From what I understand, the German publisher (Mantikore-Verlag) has been told to continue publishing the series, with their own bonus adventures and more editorial freedom. That was announced Monday, nearly four days before the official announcement of Mongoose. And from what I heard from people currently working on the LWMPGB supplements, nothing about Mongoose dropping the LW line was mentionned recently to them.

So, is the English license for the publication of the LW series has been transferred to Mantikore-Verlag or are they just continuing publishing the German version with no link whatsoever with the English version? There's nothing on the Project Aon website yet... Are they the new publisher of the LW series?
August1
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Re: So ... Book 18?

Postby August1 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:22 am

Vassagonian,

You might well be right and again, my apologies. I am clearly not communicating as well as I would like here. I will edit my post to remove that section. It's not meant to be inflammatory.

-A

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