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[CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:45 pm
by Supplement Four
There's two contradictory rules in the Conan 2E core rulebook, and this is how I've resolved the issue. I want to see if you have a comment on it.

Check out pg. 174 in the Optional Parrying Rules: The Weapon Breakage Rule. There, it says if Total Attack = Total Defense, then proceed as if the attacker had made a successful Sunder attempt vs. the defender's weapon.

The Sunder is automatically successful, and the defender does not benefit from the usual Attack of Opportunity that defenders usually get when a Sunder attack is made agains them.

Basically, what this rule says is: If your attack totals to a tie with the defender's defense (AC), then do damage to the target's weapon instead of doing damage to the target.

Although the rule doesn't specify, I assume that the sunder will be against the target's shield, first, if the target is using a shield. And, if the target is making the parry with his weapon, then the Sunder is applied to the target's weapon.

Of course, the target must be using his Parry defense. If using the Dodge defense, the rule does not apply.







The contradictory rule appears on pg. 209 in the Combat Maneuvers section of the Combat Chapter, under Lock Weapons. There, it says that when an Attack throw exactly equals his target's Parry defense, the two combatants have their weapons locked together.

When this happens, both characters make an Opposed Grapple Check where the winner may choose to knock the loser back 5 feet. And, if the check is successful by 10+ points, then the loser is also knocked prone in his new square.





I tried this procedure in our last game session. It seems to work pretty well. You tell me what you think.

When Attack = Parry, it is automaically a Sunder, as with the first rule. The defender, though, can make a REF save vs. a DC equal to the tie. If successful, we use the Lock Weapons rule. If the save fails, then the attack becomes a normal hit for the attacker.

Example.

Silaigne attacks the Hyperborean. The Hyperborean attempts to parry with his shield, but the attack exactly equals the Hyperborean's parry defense. The attack totals 16, and the Hyperborean's Parry AC is 16.

Silaigne automatically gets a successful Sunder against the Hyperborean's shield.

But, the Hyperborean decides to try for the Lock Weapons result. He must make a REF save vs DC 16. If successful, the sunder result is ignored, and the two are considered to have their weapons locked. This will be resolved using the Lock Weapons rule: both will throw grapple checks.

If the REF save is not successful, then Silaigne's blow becomes a normal successful hit to the Hyperborean, doing normal damage.





Comments?

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:01 pm
by LucaCherstich
I always tried to be as literal as possible, without adding new rules.
So my application of rules has always been this:

In case your attack roll is exactly the Parry defence:
1) First resolve the sunder
2) Them, if the weapon resists, the Lock Weapons maneuver is triggered.

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:21 pm
by Supplement Four
LucaCherstich wrote:I always tried to be as literal as possible, without adding new rules.
So my application of rules has always been this:

In case your attack roll is exactly the Parry defence:
1) First resolve the sunder
2) Them, if the weapon resists, the Lock Weapons maneuver is triggered.
I originally thought to go that route, but I thought it would be too "fussy" during the game.

Really...its no more fussy than what I suggest above.

But, what about the rule addressing only a weapon? So, if Attack = Parry, but the target uses a shield, is the rule ignored? Or do you allow the shield to be sundered?

And, really, you can't Lock Weapons with a weapon and a shield.





What about when Attack = Dodge? There's no official rule for it. The above makes Parry a little bit safer to use because ties do not equal a hit, as with Dodge.

Do you add a rule for Dodge or just skip the inconsitency?

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:35 am
by LucaCherstich
Sundering a shield is possible!
A shield has both Hd and hp, so let's smash it!

Regarding the differences between Parry and Dodge, I think they both have pros and cons, at the end it's just a list of different characteristics and therefore it's a matter of preferred tactics.

PARRY:
PROS:
- not influenced by armour
- It can trigger a Riposte Maneuver
- It gets bonuses from shields.
CONS:
-Cannot be used vs Ranged Attacks.
- Needs a weapon or shield to be done: unarmed people parry at -4 or -1 if they use improvised weapons like chairs, etc.
NEUTRAL, but possible PROS OR CONS
- influenced by Str and Class (according to a PC's stats it could be an advantage or not)
- Parry if Attack roll exacly the Parry value...but it can trigger Sunder vs your weapon (leaving you unarmed) and Lock Weapon if weapon resists...and if you are not strong enough this means that tou end up Prone!
- Influenced by weapon Length (If you use that rule).


DODGE:
PROS:
- Can be used vs Ranged Attacks (Parry cannot be used).
- It can trigger the Dance Aside Maneuver (less advantageous, but also less dangerous than Lock Weapon).
- Even a naked, unarmed man can dodge without penalty!
- It gets bonuses from shields vs ranged attacks.
CONS:
- Influenced by armour
-You get a -2 if there's not even one friendly or unoccupied square adjacent to you.
NEUTRAL:
- influenced by DEX and Class (according to a PC's stats it could be an advantage or not)

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:37 am
by Cheomesh
If the weapon is in my opinion either larger than the defender's or isn't of a type that conducts too well to parry, it goes to the sunder thing. If they're matched, it's a lock.

M.

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:28 pm
by Kev
If one of my PCs is the attacker in that situation, I let the player decide whether he wants to go for the weapon lock or the sunder. I leave it to them to decide which would more advantageous to go for, tactically speaking.

When it happens with an NPC as the attacker, I make the same decision based on what I think would be best for the NPC.

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:37 am
by Supplement Four
Kev wrote:If one of my PCs is the attacker in that situation, I let the player decide whether he wants to go for the weapon lock or the sunder. I leave it to them to decide which would more advantageous to go for, tactically speaking.

When it happens with an NPC as the attacker, I make the same decision based on what I think would be best for the NPC.
I thought about doing it that way, but, I think, it will almost always be better to Sunder than to lock. A Lock gives the defender a chance to knock the attacker down. The Sunder automatically deals damage to the weapon.

I think I'm going to follow Luca's lead, above, and defaut to the Sunder, first, then a lock if possible.

For example, if a defender uses a shield, it would be a sunder. If a defender uses a broadsword only, then it's a sunder on the sword first followed by a lock.

Re: [CONAN] Sunder or Lock Weapons?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:25 am
by LucaCherstich
I always do sunder and then lock with both weapons and shields.

I think lock is also possible with shields.
Two fighters are just pushing so badly one against the other that a lock happens.
And this could happen even pushing vs a shield