Why I keep it low...

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Supplement Four
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Why I keep it low...

Postby Supplement Four » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:36 pm

I just found this set of essays about D&D. The links take you to some good readin'. People say, "What! You don't allow arrangement to taste?" Or, they say, "You're kidding me that you make your players use the defaut dicing method to create characters instead of the heroic method!"

After you read through this essay, you may understand my reasoning. This guy makes a lot of sense.

D&D - Calibrating Expectations

If you look around this guy's site, you'll find a lot of solid thinking presented about D&D mechanics.
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Postby Spectator » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:20 am

Wow what a great bunch of essays!
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:44 am

Spectator wrote:Wow what a great bunch of essays!
Yeah, he's got some amazing thoughts on that site. Should be required reading for any 3.0 or 3.5 Game Master.

I'm going to spend some more time with them, digesting more what he has to say.
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Postby Spectator » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:23 am

I just finished reading the whole page; amazing to think that world record holder could be equated to 5th level!!!
Master craftsman at 3rd
and so forth.
Great find of an article.
It should be required reading!
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:44 am

Before I read this article, I deduced (it's kinda written between the lines in the 2E Conan RPG core rule book from various hints here and there) that the game world would typically be constructed of characters level 1-10, even though the game has a maximum level of 20.

In fact, I even wrote this for my players a couple of weeks ago (posted on my development thread, too):
-- Typical Ages and Character Level --




Most people in this campaign range in character level from 1-10. Characters that are level 11+ are true heros, in deed, known and recognized in many directions. Hyborian kings, arch-mages and great sorcerers, and clan heroes are the types of characters that can be statted at level 11+.

Otherwise, most of the population in this game can be judged by the chart below. But, beware, it is only a rule-of-thumb. It's a rule that is made to be broken.

For example, Finn, elder of Seven Stones Ridge, is 57 years old and 7th level. The chief of the Ice Leopards, though, is about ten years younger than Finn yet he is a level higher.



Level 1 - typical age is 15-16

Level 2 - typical age is 16-18.

Level 3 - typical age is 18-21

Level 4 - typical age is 21-25

Level 5 - typical age is 25-30

Level 6 - typical age is 30-36

Level 7 - typical age is 36-43

Level 8 - typical age is 43-51

Level 9 - typical age is 51-60

Level 10 - typical age is 60-70


Now, reading this article, what I wrote, and how I'm running my game, makes a whole lot more sense than I ever thought it did.


This section that Justin writes really opened my eyes to why games should be kept low level:

(Quoting the Article linked in the OP)
KNOWLEDGE AND CRAFTING

There’s a common fallacy when it comes to D&D, and it goes something like: Einstein was a 20th level physicist. So, in D&D, Einstein – that little old man – has something like a bajillion hit points and you’d need to stab him dozens of times if you wanted to kill him. That’s ridiculous!

The problem with this argument is that Einstein wasn’t a 20th level physicist. A 20th level physicist is one step removed from being the God of Physicists. Einstein was probably something more like a 4th or 5th level expert.

This can be a little bit difficult for some people to accept, so let’s run the math. At 5th level an exceptional specialist like Einstein will have:

+8 skill ranks

+4 ability score bonus

+3 Skill Focus

In the case of our 5th level Einstein, that gives him a +15 bonus to Knowledge (physics) checks. He can casually answer physics-related questions (by taking 10) with a DC of 25. Such questions, according to the PHB description of the Knowledge skill, are among the hardest physics questions known to man. He’ll know the answers to the very hardest questions (DC 30) off the top of his head about 30% of the time.

And when he’s doing research he’ll be able to add the benefits of being able to reference scientific journals (+2 circumstance bonus), gain insight from fellow colleagues (+2 bonus from aid another), use top-of-the-line equipment (+2 circumstance bonus), and similar resources to gain understanding of a problem so intractable that no one has ever understood it before (DC 40+).

(This 5th level Einstein can also be modeled with as few as 5 hit points – 1 per hit die. Even if he rolled an average number of hit points on each hit die (3 each), as an old man his average Constitution of 10 will have dropped two points. With the resulting Constitution penalty, he still only has 10 hit points. This is the other reason why the hit point argument holds no water.)

You’ll see this same fallacy trotted out whenever someone insists that the local blacksmith “must” be at least 10th level in order to be competent in their profession. In reality, the typical village blacksmith is probably only a 1st level character. At 1st level the average blacksmith’s Craft (blacksmithing) skill looks like this:

+4 skill ranks

+1 Intelligence bonus

+3 Skill Focus

+2 from an assistant or apprentice helping them

That’s a +10 bonus on their checks. This bonus allows them to take 10 and craft masterwork-quality items. By 3rd level an experienced blacksmith can do that without the help of an assistant.

Even less capable 1st level blacksmiths (without an assistant or the Skill Focus feat) still have a +5 bonus to their skill. This lets them take 10 and craft high-quality items (the only things they can’t handle are exotic weapons and complex items).

And what does an exceptional 5th level blacksmith look like?

+8 skill ranks

+4 Intelligence bonus

+3 Skill Focus

+2 masterwork tools

+2 from an assistant or apprentice helping them

That’s a +19 bonus to the check. When taking 10 he can essentially triple the speed with which he can make common items like iron pots and horseshoes. He can easily create work far surpassing masterwork quality and can every so often (when he rolls a natural 20) create a work of essentially legendary quality (DC 39).

What does all this mean?

It means that the most extraordinary blacksmiths in the real world top out at 5th level. Amakuni, the legendary Japanese swordsmith who created the folded-steel technique? 5th level.

Arachne, the legendary weaver who challenged Athena herself to a duel (and lost)? She might be 10th level.

Does this mean you should never throw a 10th level blacksmith into your campaign? Nope. D&D is all about mythic fantasy, after all. But when you do decide to throw a 10th level blacksmith into the mix, consider the fact that this guy will be amazing. He will be producing things that no blacksmith in the real world has ever dreamed of making. And a 20th level blacksmith is one step removed from Hephaestus himself.

(Coincidentally: Why do dwarves have such a reputation for mastery of the forge? They have a +2 racial bonus to Craft checks. That means that, unlike human blacksmiths, the average dwarf doesn’t need to be 3rd level in order to single-handedly create masterwork items – they can do it at 1st level. Basically, due to their natural aptitude, dwarves are master craftsmen before they ever leave their apprenticeships.)


That's pretty amazing. I doubt anyone would place Einstein as a 5th level expert character.


The article even references Conan and Thulsa's page at the bottom, when Justin says:
The problem with having false expectations about what “Strength 20” or “15th level” really means is that it creates a dissonance between what the rules allow characters to do and what you think characters should be able to do. For example, if you think that Conan should be modeled as a 25th level character, then you’re going to be constantly frustrated when the system treats him as a demigod and allows him to do all sorts of insanely powerful things that the literary Conan was never capable of. From there it’s a pretty short step to making pronouncements like “D&D can’t do Conan” (or Lankhmar or Elric or whatever).
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:20 am

Justin's excellent article concludes with:
Target the precise range of levels which form the “sweet spot” for whatever campaign concept I’m working on, and then tinker with the character creation and advancement rules to keep the campaign focused in that sweet spot. Those changes can be as simple as “XP awards will be 1/10th the normal size and everyone should create a 5th level character”, but more complicated variants are more than possible.


And, prior to that, he states:
Almost everyone you have ever met is a 1st level character. The few exceptional people you’ve met are probably 2nd or 3rd level – they’re canny and experienced and can accomplish things that others find difficult or impossible.

If you know someone who’s 4th level, then you’re privileged to know one of the most talented people around: They’re a professional sports player. Or a brain surgeon. Or a rocket scientist.

If you know someone who’s 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Walter Payton. Michael Jordan. Albert Einstein. Isaac Newton. Miyamoto Musashi. William Shakespeare.

So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they’re literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero.

My question would be: What needs to happen to the game so that the Walter Paytons, Michael Jordans, Albert Einsteins, Isaac Newtons, Miyamoto Musashis, and William Shakespeares are considered to be 10th level rather than 5th?

Obviously, it's a function of skill points. So, do we need to limit the number of skill points awarded? Or just limit their use (say, by allowing the max rank of a skill to be equal to the character's level rather than the character's level plus three).
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Postby Spectator » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:24 am

Yeah I thought your advance table was ridiculously low, but now seeing the article, I'd venture to say that its just right!
I think the only thing that should change is the Spell pre-requisites?
Maybe drop 'em by 1/2?
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:28 am

There's a poster over at Enworld that the game is most enjoyable at the 1-6 levels. You draw out how long it takes to make a level, and when you finally make 6th level, you still get some buffs every "level" after that, but you never make it to 7th.

This fits in perfectly with what Justin is saying in the article.

Here's a link to the discussion at ENWORLD: E6

And, just to keep the discussion about Conan here on this forum, here's the intro to the system referred to as "E6":
E6: The Game Inside D&D

What is E6?

Earlier this year Ryan Dancey suggested that D&D has four distinct quartiles of play:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

There’s been some great discussion about how to define those quartiles, and how each different quartile suited some groups better than others.

E6 is a game about those first 2 quartiles, and as a result, it has fewer rules, a low-magic flavor, and it is quick and easy to prepare. I have playtested the system extensively with my crew, and it works as intended. There seems to be a lot of lively debate about E6, and some real interest in how it works, so I've revised it here.

How E6 works

Like D&D, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards, canny rogues, and mighty warriors who rise against terrible dangers and overcome powerful foes. But instead of using D&D’s 20 levels to translate characters into the rules, E6 uses only the first 6. E6 is about changing one of D&D’s essential assumptions, but despite that it doesn't need a lot of rules to do so.

In E6, the stats of an average person are the stats of a 1st-level commoner. Like their medieval counterparts, this person has never travelled more than a mile from their home. Imagine a 6th-level Wizard or 6th-level Fighter from the commoner's perspective. The wizard could kill everyone in your village with a few words. The fighter could duel with ten armed guards in a row and kill every one of them. If you spot a manticore, everyone you know is in terrible, terrible danger. Against such a creature, the wizard or fighter may be your only hope. E6 recognizes that 6th level characters are mortal, while providing a context where they are epic heroes.

Levels 1 to 6 was the period where a character comes into his own, where a crash course in action and danger transforms them from 1st-level commoners into capable fighting men (or corpses). Once transformed by their experiences, a character’s growth is no longer a continuous, linear progression. There are still major differences between the master warriors and the veteran mercenaries, but it's not a change of scale.
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Postby Clovenhoof » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:56 am

:roll:

Another option to keep things more believable would be to cap the hit points at some level so a high level character can't ignore a fall off the cliffs.
...but wait, Conan D20 does that!
And you could come up with a rule that keeps combat dangerous and maintains the risk of being dropped with one blow even at high levels...
...hey, Conan does that too!

You see what I'm getting at...

Some plausibility in the game is well and good, but not at the price of limiting the whole game to 5 levels. Personally, I would be bored stiff in such a game. In D20, things only ever get interesting around level 7 or so.
Sure, the system can get awkward around level 16-plus, but that's a long way to go.

Besides, what this guy conveniently ignores (or shrugs off as "we can't know that") is that probabilities simply don't hold up in combat.
How do you handle AC items in such a game? Normally, around level 5 you have some +1 gear in D&D.

So, since he's already raping poor Aragorn:
That chap wears practically no armour. According to his "Elite" Array he'll have maybe Str 16 (level 4 boost), Dex 14. So granting him the benefit of Leather armour, he'll have a whopping AC 14. Which means that every CR1/2 Orc (Attack +4) that gets a lash at him has a 50% hit chance. His measly ~34 hit points would be depleted in a few rounds, while he only has a 75% chance to kill one Orc per round. Hell, a single two-handed critical hit could kill him.

Such a loser would never make it out of Moria alive, or Amon Hen, or Helm's Deep, or the Battle of Pelennor.

However, Tolkien did not write Middle Earth with D&D in mind. D&D was never MEANT to simulate a low-magic, realistic setting, so all that doesn't really matter. If you want to play a 99% accurate real world simulation, there are other systems for that.

BTW, reminds me of an anecdote of one of my current Conan DM. He once played in a D&D group whose DM had rather peculiar views on advancement as well. After the first session, which included several fights that sent several PCs into the negatives, he handed out _14 XP_.
I don't quite remember how long he played there - maybe 3 sessions or 4. Never advanced past 1st level anyway. So one day he just got up, calmly ripped his character sheet in half, and left. Only sensible thing to do, if you ask me.
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:05 pm

Clovenhoof wrote:Some plausibility in the game is well and good, but not at the price of limiting the whole game to 5 levels. Personally, I would be bored stiff in such a game. In D20, things only ever get interesting around level 7 or so.
I think more granularity is needed, which is why I like the "most people are between level 1-10 but the game goes has high as level 20 for the real super human stuff" aspect.

But, Justin sure makes a strong point with the skills. It's not really the level that the problem--Justin's point is that d20 characters get too many skill points so that the characters are able to to super human stuff by level 6.

If you're running Clash of the Titans, that's probably OK. But, if you want a little more realism, then the skill points need to be toned down.

Do that, and Albert Einsteins's "level" goes up--because he can't become a master physicist at level 5.



After the first session, which included several fights that sent several PCs into the negatives, he handed out _14 XP_.
I don't quite remember how long he played there - maybe 3 sessions or 4. Never advanced past 1st level anyway. So one day he just got up, calmly ripped his character sheet in half, and left. Only sensible thing to do, if you ask me.
14 XP! That's some funny shite! :lol: That cracks me up!

(Only because I'm looking at handing out extremely low XP in my game, too....but 14 XP...LOL! I figure a character can earn 14 XP a week just by living, no encounters, just doing the usual: training, thinking about stuff, etc.)
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:57 pm

Nialldubh wrote:If you interested in how D&D 3.5 populate Cities, you should get the DMG
Justin references the distribution from the DMG in the article.
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Postby Ichabod » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:49 pm

Thanks for digging up his essays. I do actually find it interesting.

Irrelevant. But, interesting. I can't really grasp why people care about realism in their fantasy, but I know people do to varying extents.

It's pointless to argue about such things, but I'd note that one of the reasons these essays mean nothing to my interests in gaming is because I have never come close to finding a problem with how good people's skill checks are in d20. What matters is that challenges to PCs are challenging, and that's rather easily accomplished. In fact, I routinely find in gaming that success and failure are more about what decisions people make and less about how well they should do on a particular roll, IMO, as it should be.
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:54 pm

dupe post.
Last edited by Supplement Four on Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Supplement Four » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:56 pm

Ichabod wrote:It's pointless to argue about such things, but I'd note that one of the reasons these essays mean nothing to my interests in gaming is because I have never come close to finding a problem with how good people's skill checks are in d20. What matters is that challenges to PCs are challenging, and that's rather easily accomplished.
I would bet that realism matters more to you that you say. For example, if the rules allowed a 1st level fighter to jump across a 100 foot chasm while wearing full plate mail, I bet you'd cry foul about that one.

And, that's basically what Justin article says. He's saying that 1st level characters are as good as Olympic athletes. He's saying that most people you know will have all their scores either 10 or 11--that only the best people you know probably have a +1 modifier in one of their characteristics. 5th level is all it takes to have a character that is so good at something that he rivals Einstein's expertise in physics. So, your character, if he has more than one stat at a +1 modifier or is higher than 5th level, is capable of super-human results in the real world.

Do we think of our characters that way? Super-human? A 6th level Soldier able to jump farther than any man in real life ever has?

That's not relevant?

I'm not sure what you mean in your comment when you speak of challenge. Challenge is adjustible by the GM based on the PCs. A 1st level Soldier may be challenged by a single over-sized rat--certainly by a single wolf. While a 15th level character may be challenged by a dragon. What's that got to do with either character having a Jump skill so high that he easily breaks the record for jumping in the real world without breaking a sweat (and is challenged with a longer distance, of course)?
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Postby Spectator » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:08 am

S4, great job on stirring the pot!
I think you made a lot of us put our thinking caps on!
The bum deal is that for sorcerors 6th level is totally paltry (although a 3.5 wizard can hurl fireballs) for our Conan Scholars, the best they may do is entrance or some other lame stuff, we may have to divide the MAB requirements by 1/2.
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Postby Ichabod » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:51 am

Supplement Four wrote:
Ichabod wrote:It's pointless to argue about such things, but I'd note that one of the reasons these essays mean nothing to my interests in gaming is because I have never come close to finding a problem with how good people's skill checks are in d20. What matters is that challenges to PCs are challenging, and that's rather easily accomplished.
I would bet that realism matters more to you that you say. For example, if the rules allowed a 1st level fighter to jump across a 100 foot chasm while wearing full plate mail, I bet you'd cry foul about that one.
What is a 1st level fighter? When I think about gaming, in particular, fantasy gaming, I don't think about what level a character is. Levels are just an arbitrary concept to facilitate playing a game in a certain way.

An ordinary person? I don't care about ordinary people. Ordinary people don't show up in books (or movies, TV, whatever inspiration). I'm not hugely interested in people running around in plate jumping 100' chasms, but if the character is doing something interesting while jumping a 100' chasm, then that might be part of the story.

Do you ever read stories where the character has to jump a 100' chasm? The ones I read don't work that way. Maybe it can be jumped if someone is strong, or skillful, or whatever. Maybe it requires magic to get across. Maybe it requires the help of someone. But, whether it's 10' or 100' isn't relevant.

You are interested in defining adventure through a spectrum of realism. That's not how I view adventure. You care whether some random dude does something superhuman, I buy into how John Carter is a human on Mars and can jump superhuman distances. Maybe you care what level of scientific question can be addressed by Einstein (or, someone does, for sake of argument), I don't worry overmuch about how the Doctor gets out of a chronic hysteresis.

I could point out that trying to define characters by level is not remotely realistic. That the d20 system and its D&D roots are exceedingly silly to me when you think about actual character development. But, once I decide I'm going to play the game, I'm just playing the game. I'm far more concerned with how imbalanced the classes are, how imbalanced the races are, how dull combat is, how annoying grappling is, how dry feats are, and whatnot than whether a skill bonus makes any sense.
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Postby Supplement Four » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:17 am

Ichabod wrote:But, whether it's 10' or 100' isn't relevant.
Actually, it is, if the story is going to maintain a suspension of disbelief with the reader.

Basically, when a d20 character gets to 6th level, he's pretty much super-human in terms of what he can do.

So, you're saying, that if you're playing the game about a group of 8-10th level characters, that you're OK with the notion that each of them are superheroes like Superman when compared to real people as long as the story is good.

Well, I like a good story as much as the next guy. In fact, it's paramount in my games. But, I also like that suspension of disbelief. When I play the Oblivion computer game, it always bothers me that a character can start swimming in full plate mail, and I sure wouldn't allow that in my games (without some sort of believable aid--like sorcery that keeps the bridge over disbelief suspended).

What you are basically saying is that, if a character can swim in full plate (without the aid of some "belief" helper, like magic), then you're OK with it. You'll fit it into the story.

To each his own. Your game is definitely different from mine.
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Postby rabindranath72 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:03 am

Those essays are very nice and thought provoking; I had read them a few years ago, and they proved quite useful at the table.
Another interesting fact: If you convert a character from Basic Roleplaying (Call of Cthulhu for example) a maximally proficient character with skills around 99% translates to a 6th-7th level d20 character.
If you consider how the d20 system was built, the first 6 levels or so work at an heroic level, the next 7 or so at wuxia level, the final levels go into the realm of superheroics. This can help you gauge the style of games you want.
In my Conan games I used a cap of 10th level; and then, just for characters the like of Conan himself (or the PCs).

It's also interesting to compare the d20 design to earliest D&D designs. If you consider AD&D first edition, a 4th level fighter is considered an "hero," an 8th level one a "superhero." The game caps effectively around 10th level, and many demihumans are limited to levels around 7th-8th. This gives the game a very "gritty" feel; characters never become powerhouses, and everything in the game world scales according to these limits, so for example even the mighty dragons are at most 11th level.
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Postby Clovenhoof » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:03 am

Supplement Four wrote: So, you're saying, that if you're playing the game about a group of 8-10th level characters, that you're OK with the notion that each of them are superheroes like Superman when compared to real people as long as the story is good.
Except that they aren't. Go look at a dedicated superhero game and compare _that_ to mid-level D20 power. How is a 9th level character _anything_ like Superman? They aren't immune to any damage, much less to energies, they can't roast things with beams from their eyes, and none of them can fly at will. Sure, in D&D some can use the Fly spell for a limited time.

Arcane casters in D&D are _really_ very powerful, no two ways about that. Wizards are also the single most powerful class in D&D by a long shot. And yes, any 9th level Wizard can rock out spells that would put characters like Gandalf or Merlin to shame. But as I said before, Gandalf and Merlin aren't D&D characters and don't live in D&D worlds, so the question what D&D class level they would have is entirely irrelevant.

But anyway: I don't care if a 9th-level character might be able to jump, say, 30 feet (seems attainable at that level). What can a level 9 Conan character do? He can't be flanked if he's the right class. Maybe he can throw people off their feet if you took the right feats. He can last a few "hits" in combat, but here we are at the old discussion what HP represent again. Oh, and he can shoot two arrows in 6 seconds, three if he is really into archery and doesn't aim too well. That's good, but it's not superhuman, and it sure is a long shot from the typical superhero powers.

So _please_ stop building a straw man. Level 8 isn't superhero, level 12 isn't and level 20 still isn't, either. Not in Conan where any lucky axe-blow can kill even a level 20 character.
What you are basically saying is that, if a character can swim in full plate (without the aid of some "belief" helper, like magic), then you're OK with it. You'll fit it into the story.
Not that Ichabod said anything like that, but well... here I agree that there is a _physical_ limit that would be violated by swimming in Full Plate. No matter how strong you are, your discplaced volume of water will always be less than your mass plus 25kg of armour so you must go under.
Luckily, a swim check in Full plate will be at least at -18 if you don't carry anything else, so it's gonna take a while before any character will even attempt to do that.

Whereas the human inability to jump 100' is not a physical, but a physiological limit. There is no reason why a creature couldn't jump 100' if it were just strong enough in relation to its body mass.

FWIW, D20 doesn't quite permit you to jump 100' anyway. It's impossible even at level 20 without magical boosters. (maybe Monks can do it, but that's wuxia again)

However, and just as an aside, those physical skills are largely irrelevant in a D&D game anyway, because of the available magic spells. You don't need to worry about jumping 100' or swimming in heavy armour when you can just use Dimension Door to teleport the entire party 700' or more (level 7); cast magic to breathe under water (level 5), turn your entire party to gaseous form so you can literally move like wind (level 11), or simply Greater Teleport your group to any place in the world (level 13).

By playing Conan D20, you have already culled out all of that, so the character actually have to get places through their own physical abilities. That's fine, but then at least give them the chance to do so. If the potential skill checks worry you so much, you can maybe cap them at 10 ranks or so.

By the way, another game system for the "realism" enthusiast is GURPS. From what I hear, it has been designed specifically to simulate the abilities and limits of real-world humans. Which already is enough reason for me not to play it. I am a real-world human all week, so I want to be able to pull off some awesome stunts at least when I play RPGs.

P.S.: there are in fact a few "Superhero" or "Demigod" games for D20 system: Mutants & Masterminds, or Exalted, most importantly.
A standard D&D game can be pimped towards Superheroes by using the Gestalt rules of Unearthed Arcana.
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Postby Supplement Four » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:24 pm

Clovenhoof wrote:Go look at a dedicated superhero game and compare _that_ to mid-level D20 power. How is a 9th level character _anything_ like Superman?
Forget about what some superhero game can do. Compare what a 9th level character can do (yes, even a Conan character) vs. a person in real life. Yes, we're talking super-human.

Did you read the article at all? Justin writes a pretty convincing case.

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