What your favorite Conan story?

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treeplanter
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Postby treeplanter » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:51 pm

I think it's because everybody here would like to make a MD blow on de Camp

Or maybe they misread the thread title to "What your favorite MD trigger in Conan story?"

I guess that would been in frost giant dauther :)
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Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
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Postby Magister_Ordo_Lyrae » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:39 am

well for all the evils that DeCamp perpetrated with regards to the Conan stories I think he was still a better sword and sorcery writer than Lin Carter (or any of the other writers who tried there hand at writing Conan, by Crom I cannot stand Robert Jordan). Most of the ones Carter wrote have made me cringe. (Thinking of Conan of Aquilonia and Conan the Avenger). IMHO DeCamp at least got the feel and style of the REH stories much better than anyone else who wrote conan stories but that may also be because most of the "pastiches" he did were just edited or finished versions of REH stories, drafts and outlines. Then again I never liked the term "pastiche." I much prefer the term "Posthumous Collaborations" coined by Mark Schultz (somewhat sarcastically) in his excellent collections of the original REH material by Del Rey books.
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Postby VincentDarlage » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:40 am

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae wrote:Most of the ones Carter wrote have made me cringe. (Thinking of Conan of Aquilonia and Conan the Avenger).
Lin Carter didn't write "Conan the Avenger." That was Bjorn Nyberg. It was originally published in 1957 as "The Return of Conan" for Gnome Press. L. Sprague de Camp edited it slightly because Nyberg was not writing in his native Swedish. For the Lancer reprint, the title was changed to "Conan the Avenger." Lin Carter had nothing to do with it. BTW, Bjorn Nyberg also co-wrote the short stories "The People of the Summit" and "The Star of Khorala" with L. Sprague de Camp for Conan the Swordsman. Again, Lin Carter was not involved in Nyberg's efforts.

And it might be worth pointing out that L. Sprague de Camp is the co-author of the stories in "Conan of Aquilonia." Further, given that "Conan of Aquilonia" was the last of the Ace/Lancer books to be published (there actually wasn't a Lancer version, IIRC), it is possible that Lin Carter's name was only put on there for contractual reasons, and that L. Sprague and/or his wife Catherine is the actual author of those stories (I state that as conjecture, not fact, but it was published in 1977, after the relationship had already fallen apart - see http://www.rehupa.com/?p=272).

Unlike the stories you mentioned, "The Hand of Nergal" was mostly written by Lin Carter (with a snippet by REH). All the other Conan work Carter did was with L. Sprague Camp, so singling Carter out doesn't make a lot of sense, at least not to me (unless you just really hate Hand of Nergal as worst-pastiche-of-all-time, or something).

Also, the term "posthumous collaboration" was not coined by Mark Schultz, just used by him. The term has been around a long time - and is a bit macabre. Imagine if you wrote something, then, after you are dead, someone else rewrites it and calls it a postumous "collaboration." However, even L. Sprague de Camp calls the "collaborations" pastiches in his mean-spirited introductory note to "Tales of Conan" (Gnome Press, 1955).
Magister_Ordo_Lyrae wrote:IMHO DeCamp at least got the feel and style of the REH stories much better than anyone else who wrote conan stories but that may also be because most of the "pastiches" he did were just edited or finished versions of REH stories, drafts and outlines.
I don't think that is true.

Pastiches
The Thing in the Crypt (de Camp and Carter)
The City of the Skulls (de Camp and Carter)
The Curse of the Monolith (de Camp and Carter)
The Lair of the Ice Worm (de Camp and Carter)
The Castle of Terror (de Camp and Carter)
Black Tears (de Camp and Carter)
Conan the Buccaneer (de Camp and Carter)
The Witch of the Mists (de Camp and Carter)
Black Sphinx of Nebthu (de Camp and Carter)
Red Moon of Zembabwei (de Camp and Carter)
Shadows in the Skull (de Camp and Carter)
Conan of the Isles (de Camp and Carter)
Legions of the Dead (de Camp and Carter)
The People of the Summit (de Camp and Nyberg)
Shadows in the Dark (de Camp and Carter)
The Star of Khorala (de Camp and Nyberg)
The Gem in the Tower (de Camp and Carter)
The Ivory Goddess (de Camp and Carter)
Moon of Blood (de Camp and Carter)
Conan the Liberator (de Camp and Carter)
Conan and the Spider God (de Camp)

I count 21 pure pastiches.

Posthumous Collaboration with REH
The Hall of the Dead (Howard & de Camp)
The Bloodstained God (Howard & de Camp)
The Snout in the Dark (Howard, de Camp, & Carter)
Hawks Over Shem (Howard & de Camp)
The Road of the Eagles (Howard & de Camp)
The Flame Knife (Howard & de Camp)
Drums of Tombalku (Howard & de Camp)
Treasure of Tranicos (Howard & de Camp) (Two versions; the one found in King Conan (Gnome Press) is different from the one in Conan the Usurper (Lancer/Ace), which are both different from the original, The Black Stranger)
Wolves Beyond the Border (Howard & de Camp)

I count 9 "posthumous collaborations," unless you count both versions of "Treasure of Tranicos" as separate "collaborations."

70% of L. Sprague de Camp's Conan output was pure pastiche. Only 30% could be considered finished versions of REH stories, drafts and outlines. Therefore, most of his pastiches were true pastiches.
Last edited by VincentDarlage on Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Teriudin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:15 pm

My favorite: Queen of the Black Coast as I love the romance of our hero, and the tragedy of it all. Inspired my first Conan D20 character, a black corsair.

Mandatory Honorable Mention: Hour of the Dragon because it is just so epic, awesome, and packed full of conan goodness.
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Postby Magister_Ordo_Lyrae » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:09 am

I stand corrected with regards to the difference between the De Camp and Carter products. I'm not sure where I got the impression about the differences between De Camp and Carter.

Although I still have to say I thought the stories in Conan of Aquilonia were especially cringe worthy (Wyvern riders in Zembabwei, "Good Guy" Ligurean druids, Etc.). Not to mention a considerable portion of the dialogue in those stories.

But to change tack and go with something positive about the Conan stories one of the REH stories I really enjoyed was [/i]Wolves across the Border[/i]. I've only read the draft by REH and when I finished it I was left really wishing it had been finished by him.
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Postby VincentDarlage » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:51 pm

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae wrote:But to change tack and go with something positive about the Conan stories one of the REH stories I really enjoyed was Wolves across the Border. I've only read the draft by REH and when I finished it I was left really wishing it had been finished by him.
I agree. Wolves Across the Border is one of the great unfinished works of Howard.
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Postby cbrunish » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:32 am

I really love Wolves Across the Border. But I read the completed version by REH and deCamp. What part is completly REH? Just wondering. Overall, I felt that this was one that deCamp did justice.
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Postby Spectator » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:42 am

In defense of DeCamp (yeah what am I thinking, right?), I actually thought "THE CASTLE OF TERROR" was a great read. Very Lovecraft-ian and suspenseful.
I think its tough to say, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone who did not like that story?
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Postby Style » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:48 am

Spectator wrote:In defense of DeCamp (yeah what am I thinking, right?), I actually thought "THE CASTLE OF TERROR" was a great read. Very Lovecraft-ian and suspenseful.
I think its tough to say, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone who did not like that story?
F4@k the castle of terror.








Just kidding, I've never read it. :)
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Postby VincentDarlage » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:44 am

Spectator wrote:In defense of DeCamp (yeah what am I thinking, right?), I actually thought "THE CASTLE OF TERROR" was a great read. Very Lovecraft-ian and suspenseful.
I think its tough to say, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone who did not like that story?
Castle of Terror is alright for a pastiche, ranking among the better ones (if not the best one). It is rather Lovecraftian (although one wishes de Camp tried harder for Howardian).
Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
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Postby Magister_Ordo_Lyrae » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:31 pm

cbrunish wrote:I really love Wolves Across the Border. But I read the completed version by REH and deCamp. What part is completly REH? Just wondering. Overall, I felt that this was one that deCamp did justice.
The draft that I read ended at the point where Gault and the other frontiersmen ambush Valerian in the house and go off to track them into the wilderness. The last line I have from the draft I read is "the trail led into the wilderness."

Other parts of the story may have been edited or modified but since I don't have the complete pastiche I could not tell you what else may or may not have been changed.
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Postby Spectator » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:50 am

Just re-reading RedNAils. Goddamn! that is a great story.
I love it as much as Xuthal of the Dusk/ The Slithering Shadow.

SOmething about evil stygian noblewomen whipping hyborian chicks in "green stone cities" works for me.

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