A Trial by His Peers

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Postby Greg Smith » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:15 pm

El Cid wrote: Recall, also, that Gem was not in any immediate danger since Gem was on B5 and Max and the Narn were deep in Narn space.

Sidney
So was the Narn actively hunting Gem, or was it just a chance encounter between him and Max?
I'm not so sure about the ". . . will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target." G'Kar's aid was reluctantly willing to delay killing the Dilgar Deathwalker.
According to the Narn fact book: "...the Blood Oath may never be taken back until the person it is called upon is dead or the true governing body of the Narn allow it to be dismissed. ... Once sworn, the Narn invoking Chon'kar is on a personal quest to find and kill the subject of his oath or die trying. No other outcome is allowed and years may be consumed in the purpose if that is what it takes for justice to be done."

Sounds pretty serious to me. :)
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Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:15 am

Greg Smith wrote:
El Cid wrote: Recall, also, that Gem was not in any immediate danger since Gem was on B5 and Max and the Narn were deep in Narn space.

Sidney
So was the Narn actively hunting Gem, or was it just a chance encounter between him and Max?
I'm not so sure about the ". . . will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target." G'Kar's aid was reluctantly willing to delay killing the Dilgar Deathwalker.
According to the Narn fact book: "...the Blood Oath may never be taken back until the person it is called upon is dead or the true governing body of the Narn allow it to be dismissed. ... Once sworn, the Narn invoking Chon'kar is on a personal quest to find and kill the subject of his oath or die trying. No other outcome is allowed and years may be consumed in the purpose if that is what it takes for justice to be done."

Sounds pretty serious to me. :)
Max was told by the Narn that he knew Max was working for Gem.

As to if the Narn was actively seeking Gem, Max could assume that the Narn was seeking her although the Narn never said specifically that. See original post on this thread.

Max also knew that Gem had almost been murdered by a Centauri assasin a couple of weeks eariler.

She may have mentioned to Max that there had been other attempts on her life in the past few years while she was completing her education on earth. Gem had always assumed that House Kadoro (sp?) was behind thse attempts and didn't know that any Narns were trying to kill her. She may not have mentioned the Centauri house but my memory is far from perfect.

Let me know if there are any other points that need to be cleard up but remember that the Narn judge and/or jury wouldn't know these things unless Max mentioned them because Gem didn't in her deposition.

From what I've seen so far the guilty vote are slightly outnumbering the not guilty ones.

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Postby frobisher » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:41 am

shalazar_bation wrote:And frobisher, no one said anything about the Narns using the Chon'Kar to dictate their every waking moment.... no one. we just said that they will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target. The Narn are a very patient race. we understand that they can not and do not stop "living" just to fullfill their Chon'Kar, again, you have missed the point, but alass, you are only one vote.... :wink:
Yes, but currently that one vote means the court is leaning towards a conviction ;)

I did not miss the point. The only point at which the Narn would be a threat is when he was in a position to enact his Chon'Kar, and he wasn't. Geographical seperation is good enough to keep most Chon'Kars on hold.

However you're buggered trying to use Chon'Kar as a defense BTW, it clearly states in the Narn Supplement that aliens do not enjoy the legal protection that Narn do with regards to killings under a Chon'Kar situation. In fact, that is why most Chon'Kars in the modern era are against aliens...

Notably, if an alien is a subject of a Chon'Kar, and kills the one trying to enact the Chon'Kar he does not enjoy the immunity from prosecution that a Narn would, and in fact has committed a crime.

So you can imagine how dimmly a Narn court should look at the case when it wasn't a Chon'Kar against the alien that was being cried as a defence, and that the killing was essentially an unlicenced assassination.
Last edited by frobisher on Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:36 am

El Cid wrote: Let me know if there are any other points that need to be cleard up but remember that the Narn judge and/or jury wouldn't know these things unless Max mentioned them because Gem didn't in her deposition.

Sidney
But if Max took the stand, he would be able to answer any questions put to him.
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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:43 am

Gem'toth is human, right? So why does she have a Narn style name?

Was the ship Max served on a freighter, a warship or what? ie did he serve in/with the Narn armed forces?
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Postby mthomason » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:52 am

Guilty as hell. Space him, fry him, lethal injection, whatever :D
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Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:05 pm

Greg Smith wrote: But if Max took the stand, he would be able to answer any questions put to him.
So go ahead and ask him your questions.

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Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:24 pm

Greg Smith wrote:Gem'toth is human, right? So why does she have a Narn style name?

Was the ship Max served on a freighter, a warship or what? ie did he serve in/with the Narn armed forces?
Gem'Toth was adopted by Je'Toth after she saved him from some Centauri when she was 8 years old.

BACKGROUND:
Gem was 6 years old when her parents and the other members of their xenoarchological expidition were murdered by some Centauri.

She was enslaved and spent the next 2 and one-half years on the Centauri ship - Xon's Demise.

Gem is a genius ( Intelligence = 18 )

While on the Centauri ship she became friends with a number of people including:

Mariel, a female Centauri who had been a member of a minor noble house but who was enslaved by House Kaduro (sp?)

George, an exceptionally large Drazi slave who is one year younger than Gem

George's parents, Drazi slaves

Dr. Ponsel, a Centauri slave who served as the ship's doctor

After the Centauri chief engineer discovered that Gem could repair electronic equipment, he used her to repair systems on the ship that would have required the engineers to remove heavy equipment to get at the faulty parts but she could access them easily due to her small size

Gem was able to befriend the engineers and during her time as a slave, she was able to make a number of unauthorized modifications to the ship which she was able to use when she locked down the ship and threatened to vac any Centauri who wouldn't surrender. This allowed her to rescue Je'Toth and his son.

Je'Toth wanted to return her to earth but this was during the last six months of the Minbari war. Rather than send her home to be killed by the Minbari, he adopted her. He also furnished weapons and other supplies to the humans but was forced to accept large amouts of nearly worthless EA credits for his weapons. Two of his ships were loading up humans from earth during the Battle of the Line. When the Minbari surrendered, his captains reported this to Je'Toth and he bought up all the "worthless" EA credits he could get. This is what made his fortune.

Sidney

I'll let Max's player answer the second question.
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Postby Sutek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:53 pm

It seems that Max (A) Robbed a Narn of his oath and therefore his right to fulfill that oath by letting misguied human loaylty to cloud his thinking. He treated the Chon'kar threat against Gem'toth as a human would and in doing so he depreived Gem'toth of her due and Zar'Lorn's right and privelege to dispense justice through the Chon'kar.

However, Narn law does not speak to penalties of death for a reason. The reason is that Narn have the Chon'kar and it is know that a transgression great enough to have this oath taken up against another is more than likely warranted or that the oath taker will be stopped when the confrontation occurs. It is intended not only to satisfy the wronged, but to strike fear into the offender for that wrong. There is an obligation between the two; both the accused and accuser. The one is pursued and knows this; the other pursues relentlessly and knows this. But...and let me make this abundantly clear...the oath, the obligation of the Chon'kar is with no other and interference is simply never warranted. The Chon'kar of one will never involve a third party, unless that person too has a Chon'kar directed toward them. It matters not if the subject of the Chon'kar is Narn or otherwise.

If Mr Wolf felt his employer was in mortal danger, there is no argument that this was the case. If Mr Wolf thought himself to be in danger, then this is false and he was wrong to take action against Zar'Lorn, regardless of his "feelings". The right thing to do was to allow NARN his Chon'kar against Gem'toth, however that might end, regardless of his human feelings.

Now, were Mr Wolf narn, I would advocate Government sanctioned petitions to the family members of Zar'Lorn suggesting that the each take up Chon'kar against him. It is my opinion that this will not be the case as, being Narn, they will likely all do this of thier own volition. To my mind, that is just punishment for his interference - the fear and obligation to die at the hands of other Narn for how ever long his already short human life lasts.
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Postby redlaco » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:12 pm

Great Sutek, that sounds like a reasonable Narn reasoning !
It would certainly be ironic if Max receive a few Chon'Kar himself after trying to end the Chon'Kar aimed at his employer...
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Postby shalazar_bation » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:22 pm

It seems that Max (A) Robbed a Narn of his oath and therefore his right to fulfill that oath by letting misguied human loaylty to cloud his thinking.
Apparently, you didn't read the part were he told me to kill him....?!?
The Chon'kar of one will never involve a third party, unless that person too has a Chon'kar directed toward them. It matters not if the subject of the Chon'kar is Narn or otherwise.
Your Wrong... Narns hire assassins to fufill the Chon'Kar... read previous posts in this thread for more exampls. second, there are times in the show that a Chon'Kar was "interfered" with... So again... your Wrong...

then this is false and he was wrong to take action against Zar'Lorn, regardless of his "feelings". The right thing to do was to allow NARN his Chon'kar against Gem'toth, however that might end, regardless of his human feelings.
Again, your wrong.... My "feelings" dictate everything I do... oww wait Narns do to.... well, I am just going by the most famus Narn of them all... G'Kar. Were his "feelings" led him to self sacrifise for the whole Narn race... Now, the rest of that gibberish that you wrote... is wrong as per my previous note above.

It is my opinion that this will not be the case as, being Narn, they will likely all do this of thier own volition. To my mind, that is just punishment for his interference - the fear and obligation to die at the hands of other Narn for how ever long his already short human life lasts.
Again... ya know what? Never mind you get the picture...
:roll:


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Postby Sutek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:28 pm

shalazar_bation wrote:
It seems that Max (A) Robbed a Narn of his oath and therefore his right to fulfill that oath by letting misguied human loaylty to cloud his thinking.
Apparently, you didn't read the part were he told me to kill him....?!?
Outrageous!!

Again, as a human, you do not understand. Of course Zar'lorn would rather die than cease his blood oath agaist the Toth family. Even if the oath taker askes to be killed, the only way out of Shon'kar is the the death of the accused, not od of the assassin. Certainly you see this. Besides, the eveidence that he told you to kill him is hearsay; your word agaisnt that of a dead Narn by your hand. Are you saying now that you did not kill him? No. So the course of action that I posit best is, as I said earlier.

I present from evidence:
MaxWolf: "Hmmm... That is too bad. But your fight is not with me.
I will give you your life for Gem's. I can careless what you do
with Je'Toth, but Gem is useful to me at this point in time. You
can choose, your life or Gem's. What is your answer?"

Sidney's Response:
Zar'Lorn: "Stupid human! Go ahead and kill me! I cannot take back my
blood oath even for the life of my family! She is responsible for
the
deaths of my parents and who knows what has happened to my sister!
She must die! Leave now and I will trouble you no more."

Max notes that a few people (Narns) have come in and out of the rest
room but no one seems to react to his little conversation. After the
blood oath was mentioned, the restroom became very quiet as no one
enters and those who were in it seem to have quietly left.

Max's conclusion:
MaxWolf: "Suite yourself."

With the muzzle of the PPG on the back of his neck, he slightly
compresses the trigger releasing the charge into the back of the
Narns upper neck. The Narn's knees tremble, then collapsed. He fell
forward hitting the sink, then rolled off onto the ground. Max
grabs him around the shoulders and drags him into the stall, sitting
him up on the toilet. He draws his Ka'Toc, and cuts his throat.
Max takes his finger and dips it into the blood on the Ka'Toc and
rights two words on the wall above the Narns head, "blood oath".
(NOTE: In Narn.) He cleans the Ka'Toc, sheaths it. Holsters his PPG
and puts the Narns PPG in his bag along with the Ka'Toc. He washes
the blood off of him, changes cloths and walks out like nothing
happened.
Mr Wolf aknowledges that Zar'lorn's quarrel is not with him.

Mr Wolf admits Gem'toth's necessity to himself without regard for Gem'toth's necessity to Zar'lorn. This is the epitome of human arrogance and self centeredness.

Mr Wolf also claims he was asked by Zar'lorn to kill him, but in the same response to Mr Wolf's ... interrogation (one initiated with threat of bodily harn, I might add, in the form of Mr Wolf's recounting of former malice against Narn citizens - hmrf!) ... in the same response, Zar'lorn speaks the words "Leave now and I will trouble you no more."


"Leave now and I will trouble you no more."


However, Mr Wolf continues his cowardly act by heinously shooting Zar'lorn in the back of the head, totally defenseless, and then desicrating Zar'lorn's body by disposing of him and mutilating him in a ... toilet ...

Mr Wolf calously deprived Zar'lorn of life and the pursuit of his Chon'kar, a matter he took on personally rather than in the manner of a hired assassin.

Were I to have the power I would suggest Mr Wolf be extradited to the Narn homeworld, but alas I am but a humble one among many, most of which have little or no desire to understand my culture.

The facts are clear: Mr Wolf shot a defenseless Narn in the back who did not provoke him nor intended to threaten him in any way, soley out of greed and malice.

To my mind, there is no just punishment in the human calendar for what he has done. The only just course is to follow Narn law and tradition...
Last edited by Sutek on Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sutek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:36 pm

redlaco wrote:Great Sutek, that sounds like a reasonable Narn reasoning !
It would certainly be ironic if Max receive a few Chon'Kar himself after trying to end the Chon'Kar aimed at his employer...
Thank you, red'laco. I take emense pride in my Narn heritage. A sentiment I find many humans are lacking.
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Postby shalazar_bation » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:18 pm

Again, as a human, you do not understand. Even if the oath taker askes to be killed, the only way out of Shon'kar is the the death of the accused, not od of the assassin. Certainly you see this. Besides, the eveidence that he told you to kill him is hearsay; your word agaisnt that of a dead Narn by your hand. Are you saying now that you did not kill him? No. So the course of action that I posit best is, as I said earlier.
Again.... your wrong... wow, do we realy have to go over this again?

Ok, there are three ways to stop the Chon"Kar...

1.) Kill your target....

2.) The true governing body of the Narn(the Ka'Ri) allow it to be dismissed

3.) Die trying


I'm not sure what you read... but I would say that he died trying....


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Postby Sutek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:03 pm

He died at the hands of a coward who refused to allow him to try. He said himself his quarrel was not with Mr Wolf.

Bah! You humans are all the same...

:evil:

Your argument that he "died trying" not only irrelevant, it is insulting. He was murdered, without provocation, and you blame Narn culture for this?!

Blame your own, human. There are days I wonder why the Mindari doidn't simply finish the job at the Line...
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Postby shalazar_bation » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:34 pm

oh, he tried alright, see something that the rest of you didn't see(or told) was that he pretended to be working for Gem when he approached me. So intern he did have an issue with me, he deseived me and was trying to get me on board his ship or were ever he was taking me... it went something like this:

During one of the rare long layovers (it departs in 4 hours), as he
waits for his transport, a Narn comes over to him.

"Excuse me, Mr. Wolf. I am Zar'Lorn. I believe you were waiting for
your transport?"

Max: "Yes?"

Zar'Lorn: "I have been able to get you out on an earlier transport. I can
help you with your luggage if you'd like. We need to hurry as it is
scheduled to depart in 30 minutes."

MaxWolf: "Hi, Zar'Lorn, pleasure meeting you. I assume you want me to
give you the secret password "verotoss", so you know I'm no spy?"

Zar'Lorn: "Of course."

MaxWolf: "I would appreciate the help with the luggage, I seemed to have pulled a mussel in my arm and can't seem to hold my bag. Thank you." Handing the Narn the two bags, he stops and says, "after you."

I let him walk in front of me. At some point that there was no one around, I sliped my PPG out of its holster and into my jacket pocket. Keep in mind that I am directly behind him.

Once, I had it in my jacket, I waited for another opportunity were there are no other people around and I walked up next to him on the side that he was holding the bags and turned the PPG on, allowing him to hear the hum of the ppg turning on.

MaxWolf: "I think we need to go to the bath room!"

He looks surprised and complies. "What?!"



And then you guys know the rest.... So yes his fight was with me at that point... he chose to bring me in, weather I was working for her or not, he brought me in...

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Postby Sutek » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:47 pm

So you admit to premeditation of Zar'lorn's murder? He asked to carry your luggage and you interpret this as a deceptive threat? Such a threat, at that, that you deem it necessary to prepare you weapon in order to murder Zar'lorn.

He decieved you. He played along with your assumption that he needed a password so he could use you to get closer to Gem'toth. There is nothing threatening to your person in this act. Nothing whatsoever.

Instead, you admit to preparation towards the murder of Zar'lorn with even less reason to do so .... other than you were lied to.

I am glad I have the good sense to see that you are not representative of the entire human species. You are scum beneath scum and a treacherous scum at that. You are so violent, paranoid and inclined towards arrogance that you seem to truly believe your words to be of divine providence.

I was asked to come here to cast my vote to your guilt or innocenece. I must truly and wholey say that you are in fact guilty, and if your human law provides for yor excecution, the injustice is that the Lorn family will not have the satisfaction of seeing you kept alive while your flesh is stripped from your bones one inch at a time should that verdict come to fruition...
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Postby Greg Smith » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:15 pm

Sutek wrote:But...and let me make this abundantly clear...the oath, the obligation of the Chon'kar is with no other and interference is simply never warranted. The Chon'kar of one will never involve a third party, unless that person too has a Chon'kar directed toward them. It matters not if the subject of the Chon'kar is Narn or otherwise.
So you would not expect Na'toth to stop someone with a Chon'kar against G'kar? I don't think that is very likely.
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Postby Greg Smith » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:18 pm

Since my question seems to have been missed, I'll ask it again: Shalazar, did Max serve on a Narn warship or freighter? ie did he serve in the Narn armed forces?
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Postby shalazar_bation » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:11 am

Sorry Greg,

Max served on a Narn war ship... but, they were a trade ship... as in Pirate ship :wink: .... not the Narn armed forces. He was an electronics/computer repair man... (yep thats right, all this was done by a Nerd! yep 18 Intelagence...what was that sid?... Genus) and general consultant for all things human... kinda thing. 8)


Hope that helps,

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