A Trial by His Peers

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shalazar_bation
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Postby shalazar_bation » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:22 pm

so your saying that if someone threatened the life of your family member, and you believed in your heart that that person wouldn't stop untill your family member was dead... you wouldn't stop that person? Are you kidding me? As I stated before, Max knew that he WOULD not stop untill she was dead. Now the end may not justify the means but put yourself in his shoes. Just knowing about Narn culture and their ways makes the Narn a threat.

And First off, the jury is suppose to be a panel of Narn, they know that the Narn is not going to call off the Chon'Kar, they also have been told by G'Kar, a member of the Ka'rie that it must have been the Narns Fault that this happened. You guys know that Max is a "bad" person, cause of info, I as the player gave you, not what Max has given the jury. All the jury has been told, is that Max is an upstanding human, with great honor, and they wern't told this by some random person, they were told that by a member of the Ka'Rie.


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Postby frobisher » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:03 pm

shalazar_bation wrote:so your saying that if someone threatened the life of your family member, and you believed in your heart that that person wouldn't stop untill your family member was dead... you wouldn't stop that person? Are you kidding me? As I stated before, Max knew that he WOULD not stop untill she was dead. Now the end may not justify the means but put yourself in his shoes. Just knowing about Narn culture and their ways makes the Narn a threat.
That merely explains his actions, it does not defend them. BIG difference.
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Postby shalazar_bation » Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:32 pm

Look, my job is to plea to the emotions of the jury. By using the example of the Centauri Emporor I thought that would work... and quite frankly, you don't have to "buy" it, the Narn jury has to "buy" it... But again, you guys are going off Out of Charecter information, that Max is a "bad" man in general. And there is probably nothing I could say to change your mind. so it's kinda a mooo point... :wink:

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Postby PottsBr » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:42 pm

If we are to talk about what a Narn jury is going to think, disregarding the evidence at the trial and so forth, the narn jury is going to say, "How dare this human interfere with the honorable execution of the Chon'Kar. Fry the bastard." At this point, I don't think we even know for sure if the Narn judicial system uses a jury. You may just be dragged in front of a judge, the evidence presented and sentence pronounced. (Only the guilty go to trial. Trying the innocent would be unfair).

As for what I would do, that is irrelevent to the discussion of whether the character is guilty or not. If I were to learn that someone intended to harm those close to me, I would report it to the police and expect them to do something about it. In the meantime, I would take whatever steps I felt were possible to make it as difficult for the criminal as possible, alarms, move my family, arm myself, etc. If I took matters into my own hands and killed the person in cold blood, I would expect to go to jail if I were caught.

At this point it come sdown to what is important to your character. Are you willing to go to jail (or whatever the local penal code states is the appropriate punishment) for your action? If the answer is yes, then go right ahead. If the answer is no, then you need to find another way to deal with it. As I suggested above, give him the weapon and then take him down when he tries to kill you with it. Problem solved, now a case of self-defense.

In this case, as I also said above, we need to know what Narn law says about your actions. It doesn't matter if they were right or wrong from a human point of view, or even a Narn point of view. Were your actions legal under the Narn penal code? The moral fiber of your character is really irrelevant to the case except where it serves to indicate whether your version of events is accurate and believed by the court. If it were shown to the court that you were a bad person, they would also assume that you were lieing. The character witnesses serve to convince the court that your version of events is accurate, but just because it is true and understandable, does not make it legal. Statuatory law determines that.

Also keep in mind that from the version of events given, there is no driving emotional force compelling you to kill this Narn. The person you are defending is not family or a lover, just an employer and possibly a friend, though that is unclear from the testimony provided.
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Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:43 pm

The fact that the Narn book doesn't cover the Narn legal system (at least I don't recall anything in the book) is why I decided to hold the "trial" in our gaming group and bounce the events off the forum.

So, you have the "real" facts, the prosecution's case and Max's defense.

The question is what would happen to max in the Narn justice system?
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Postby PottsBr » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:23 pm

The Narn don't feel to me like they use a jury system,.. I expect a court run by a member of the Ka'Rhi. He will listen to the evidence and be offended by this human's actions and his interference in Narn business and custom.

The impact of the character statements will be small. The employer's statement will be disregarded as she was the target of the Chon'kar and clearly biased in the matter. Only G'kar's statement will be given any weight. The judge's own opinion of G'kar will have a strong influence on the outcome here. If we assume the the judge respects G'kar and is not a political rival, I think it will sway the court into treating this matter as though the crime was committed by a Narn.

Even so, I think the court will rule against the defendant. The Chon'kar is an honorable institution, practiced with a certain amount of dignity, usually. Subjects of a Chon'kar or even an assassination on Narn are often warned ahead of time. Formal threats and challenges are issued. This cold blooded murder of a helpless opponent will not sit well with the court. I would expect a guilty verdict, but a light sentence, say 5 years in a Narn labor camp.

If play with the character is to continue after that point, escape is always an option, especially with outside help.

As the Narn FactBook is mute on the subject of the Narn legal system, that is a point of fact that you as the GM need to decide upon for your campaign. Again, I expect no jury. I expect that a subject of Chon'kar is free to kill their attacker in defense of themselves, and even act preemptively, but they would be expected to do it in an honorable fashion, in keeping with the tradition of the Chon'Kar. A gunshot by a hired thug in the back of the head of the Narn while kneeling on the bathroom floor probably doesn't quite cut it. That's the sort of behavior they'd expect from a Centauri.
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Postby El Cid » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:49 pm

I posted the following poll in our PBEM group.

How does the jury find the defendant Max Wolk?

o Guilty of murder - Death penalty

o Guilty of murder – Life in jail

o Second Degree Murder – 20 years in jail

o Unauthorized use of a lethal weapon – 5,000 credit fine

o Theft of the Ka’Toc and/or PPG – 2 years in jail

o Theft of the Ka’Toc and/or PPG – 1,000 credit fine

o Theft of the Ka’Toc and/or PPG – Restitution of property to family

o Not Guilty of All Charges

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Postby redlaco » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:52 pm

Sorry Shalazar, but my verdict would be : <drum roll>

o Second Degree Murder – 20 years in jail

I think that anything less severe would be a sham.

But don't despair, your friends/employer might still help you try a daring escape and this could make for a fascinating gaming experience, no ?
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Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:28 pm

8) :lol: :wink:


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Postby Greg Smith » Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:57 pm

I have to say that I think there is a little to much human thinking here. The Narn are a society with legalised murder. The Chon'kar allows one Narn to kill another legally, the Thenta Makur can be hired to carry out a Chon'kar.

When one person says they are going to kill you and they will not stop until you are dead and the law can do nothing about it, the only way to stop them is to kill them first (even crippling them is not an option because he could legally hire the Thenta Makur). Max was Gem'toth's bodyguard and so responsible for her safety - so it was his duty to protect her, and the only way that could happen was to kill the Narn.

Remember prominent Narn have Bin'loth bodyguards - counter-assassins trained to remove any threat to their charges.

I think the only thing Max was guilty of was removing the Ka'toc and PPC. Should he return them to the family (assuming they can be found), I think he should be NOT GUILTY.

Of course, if this were under human law, the verdict would undoubtedly be guilty of murder.
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Postby El Cid » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:40 am

Greg Smith wrote:I have to say that I think there is a little to much human thinking here. The Narn are a society with legalised murder. The Chon'kar allows one Narn to kill another legally, the Thenta Makur can be hired to carry out a Chon'kar.

When one person says they are going to kill you and they will not stop until you are dead and the law can do nothing about it, the only way to stop them is to kill them first (even crippling them is not an option because he could legally hire the Thenta Makur). Max was Gem'toth's bodyguard and so responsible for her safety - so it was his duty to protect her, and the only way that could happen was to kill the Narn.

Remember prominent Narn have Bin'loth bodyguards - counter-assassins trained to remove any threat to their charges.

I think the only thing Max was guilty of was removing the Ka'toc and PPC. Should he return them to the family (assuming they can be found), I think he should be NOT GUILTY.

Of course, if this were under human law, the verdict would undoubtedly be guilty of murder.
One point to correct: "Max was Gem'toth's bodyguard and so responsible for her safety - so it was his duty to protect her, and the only way that could happen was to kill the Narn."

Max was working for Gem, not her body guard.

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Postby Greg Smith » Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:55 am

El Cid wrote: One point to correct: "Max was Gem'toth's bodyguard and so responsible for her safety - so it was his duty to protect her, and the only way that could happen was to kill the Narn."

Max was working for Gem, not her body guard.

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Okay, but according to his defence he was responsible for her safety:
Shalazar wrote: Mr. Wolf was confronted by Zar'Lorn and was told that he has sworn a Chon'Kar against his employer Gem'Toth. His business is security, it was and still is his responsibility to protect his employer.
I still believe that under Narn law, Max would not be convicted.
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Postby toothill man » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:38 pm

not guilty :shock: let the perp go(best dredd voice on)
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Postby frobisher » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:57 pm

Guilty - 20 years M'lud...

First rule of GMing, if the players do something stupid and get caught doing it then let them take the consequences otherwise they'll keep doing stupid things and think you'll let them off with it.

Whilst the Narn have insitutionalised revenge murders doesn't mean that you can murder indescriminately, especially if you aren't a Narn.

20 years rather than the Death Penalty because I'm not that much of a bastard, and besides if the other players want to get him out, they can. Just don't bank on it...
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Postby ronbogard » Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:23 pm

I vote for:
o Guilty of murder - Death penalty
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Postby Greg Smith » Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:14 pm

frobisher wrote: Whilst the Narn have insitutionalised revenge murders doesn't mean that you can murder indescriminately, especially if you aren't a Narn.
But it was NOT indiscriminate. The only way to stop a Narn who has a Chon'kar is to kill him. If you injure him he will try again when is better, if you imprison him he will try again when he is free, if you cripple him he can hire the Thenta Makur.

Max is employed by Gem for security. He was simply carrying out his duty. Granted it was in a cold-blooded way, but I cannot see it being illegal under Narn law.
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Postby frobisher » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:47 am

Greg Smith wrote:But it was NOT indiscriminate. The only way to stop a Narn who has a Chon'kar is to kill him. If you injure him he will try again when is better, if you imprison him he will try again when he is free, if you cripple him he can hire the Thenta Makur.
As G'kar noted in the series, he had plenty of Chon'kars against him, and indeed that he's sworn. But as we saw, this didn't dictate his every action. Chon'kar requires opportunity, and that can be denied very easily without recourse to murder. Yes, any Narn will say that they will not rest until so and so is dead, but if they don't actually have to come within striking distance of the subject of their Chon'Kar then it isn't going to be carried out.

Na'Toth's Chon'Kar vs Jhadur was one that could not have been reasonably thought to have ever had a chance of being carried out, the Dilgar being an extinct race and whatnot. It only became an issue because there was Deathwalker. Na'Toth's entire existence was not devoted to the Chon'Kar, because he opportunity was not there in front of her on a day to day basis. Just because the Narn victim had declared his Chon'Kar against Gem, did not mean that he could enact it.
Greg Smith wrote:Max is employed by Gem for security. He was simply carrying out his duty. Granted it was in a cold-blooded way, but I cannot see it being illegal under Narn law.
Of course it is. He's not Thenta'makur. He isn't licensed for preemptive "justice". Whilst he had identified a potential threat to Gem, the Narn in question was not an actual threat until the circumstances permitted.
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Postby shalazar_bation » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:28 pm

Thanks Mr. Smith, But there is no changing frobisher's mind. I agree that thier is no stopping a Narn unless you kill him.

And frobisher, no one said anything about the Narns using the Chon'Kar to dictate their every waking moment.... no one. we just said that they will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target. The Narn are a very patient race. we understand that they can not and do not stop "living" just to fullfill their Chon'Kar, again, you have missed the point, but alass, you are only one vote.... :wink:


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Postby El Cid » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:35 pm

shalazar_bation wrote:Thanks Mr. Smith, But there is no changing frobisher's mind. I agree that thier is no stopping a Narn unless you kill him.

And frobisher, no one said anything about the Narns using the Chon'Kar to dictate their every waking moment.... no one. we just said that they will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target. The Narn are a very patient race. we understand that they can not and do not stop "living" just to fullfill their Chon'Kar, again, you have missed the point, but alass, you are only one vote.... :wink:


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I'm not so sure about the ". . . will not stop(as in, not stop attemting) to kill their target." G'Kar's aid was reluctantly willing to delay killing the Dilgar Deathwalker.

Recall, also, that Gem was not in any immediate danger since Gem was on B5 and Max and the Narn were deep in Narn space.

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Postby shalazar_bation » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:59 pm

I also seem to recall that she was ordered by G'Kar to "stand Down", but I will watch that eposode tonight to recall what realy happened. And again, I did agree that the Narns are patient and could wait to kill their target. But it doesn't change the fact that they would and will at some point try to kill their target and they are willing to give their lives because of it.


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