Techno-Mage Prestige Class...

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
B5Fan

Techno-Mage Prestige Class...

Postby B5Fan » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:08 am

Does anyone else find it strange than the Techno-mage Kenetic-Gremlin class has a requirement of Balance 8? but since it's a cross-class skill a techno-mage cant become a kenetic-gremlin until something like 13th level.
Also Kenetic-Gremlin is a 10 level class.

I'm a little comfused as to what to do for this class, as I'm running a game and have a pc who wants to become one as time goes by.
User avatar
psyclonejack
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Waterloo, IA

Postby psyclonejack » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:18 am

Babylon 5 has cross class skills?? Boggle. Mine doesn't. Shrug.

PsycloneJack
B5Fan

Postby B5Fan » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:43 pm

If B5 didn't have class and cross class skills why would the class's have "class skills", and why would the main book say to use the skill section of the PHB up to the skill descriptions.
User avatar
psyclonejack
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Waterloo, IA

Postby psyclonejack » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:13 am

Hmm,

Perhaps I did not make my self clear. I am the GM of my B5 group. In my B5 game there is no such thing as a class skill, or a cross-class skill. So again, let me state . . .

Babylon 5 has cross class skills?? Boggle. Mine doesn't. Shrug.

PsyJack
shem_whistler
Shrew
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:52 pm
Location: Enfield, UK
Contact:

Postby shem_whistler » Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:57 pm

PsyJack

That sounds interesting, do you have any details on this 'classless' system. I have heard the idea mentioned but never seen anything written down.

I have some players that find D20 too rigid and this may something that we could consider.

Cheers

Shem
"That's right. I never get involved with my own life. It's too much trouble."

"I don't want to get killed because of a typo, it would be embarrassing."
Fedifensor
Cub
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:52 am

Re: Techno-Mage Prestige Class...

Postby Fedifensor » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:19 pm

B5Fan wrote:Does anyone else find it strange than the Techno-mage Kenetic-Gremlin class has a requirement of Balance 8? but since it's a cross-class skill a techno-mage cant become a kenetic-gremlin until something like 13th level.
Also Kenetic-Gremlin is a 10 level class.

I'm a little comfused as to what to do for this class, as I'm running a game and have a pc who wants to become one as time goes by.
Easy solution - give technomages Balance as a class skill. Considering that spells like Floating Disk require Balance checks, this isn't too much of a stretch.
User avatar
crizh
Mongoose
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:24 pm

feats...

Postby crizh » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:05 pm

Is there not a hobby feat in the main rulebook? I'm sure I remember reading a feat that allowed you to take a cross-class skill as a class skill.
shalazar_bation
Mongoose
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Barony of MysticGlade

Postby shalazar_bation » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:53 pm

I agree, take the "Hobby" feet and go from there, or wait for level 13 and twice the number of skill points.


Shalazar
To get where you want to be, ya have to jump through some hoops.
User avatar
redlaco
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:30 pm
Location: Québec, Canada

Postby redlaco » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:15 pm

But this solution would require to sacrifice a feat to cover what I consider an omission.
So I'll use Fedifensor's solution instead of the Hobby feat.
"Knowledge is what makes the difference between the world you want, and the world other people think you should have." -- JMS
User avatar
crizh
Mongoose
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:24 pm

sacrifice

Postby crizh » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:48 pm

Obviously one is required to sacrifice a feat, just as one is required to sacrifice 8 skill points...

More an investment than a sacrifice really. After all Prestige classes are supposed to be dificult to qualify for.

(I don't believe I said that, I hope my GM isn't reading this....)
Trust the Computer, the Computer is your friend...
shalazar_bation
Mongoose
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Barony of MysticGlade

Postby shalazar_bation » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:14 pm

I agree with Crizh on this, if it is a mistake then it would have been clarified by Mongoose.... To no avail...

With the rules like they are, You have a choice, wait to lv 13 or spend a feet to get it faster. look at it that way.

Or you can make a house rule.


Shalazar
All about the GM making house rules for me to rape!
User avatar
psyclonejack
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Waterloo, IA

Postby psyclonejack » Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:22 am

shem_whistler wrote: That sounds interesting, do you have any details on this 'classless' system. I have heard the idea mentioned but never seen anything written down.
Shem,

It seems I am not typing plainly. I do not have a classless system. I simply play it that there are no cross class skills. I treat every possible skill as a class skill. Why should only specific people be able to do something well. Anyone who practices, applies effort towards learning, and most of all spends points can learn or do anything they want.

So, I dont mean to get off on a rant here, but let me explain the reasoning for OUR houserule.

Why place a double whammy on players?

First you say: You can only have so many skill points because of your class.
Second you say: You can only learn certain class skills well.

So, If they can only spend points in certain areas, then why limit the number of points based on class? Why not grant the same skill points to all classes and then limit where they can be spent? OR Why not simply get rid of the whole class skill and cross class skill distinction. Then the only limitation placed on players is number of points granted based on class.

In closing, With the way the D20 rules are, one could never have a Scientist that was an ace pilot. I know several doctors that are ace pilots because they fly every weekend in real life, and own there own planes. The game is about fun. The game is about escape. If there are too many limitations, rules, and steps to do something, the fun leaves. Therefore, given the massive amount of skills in the B5 world. Our group decided to simply do away CrossClass skills and make all skills class skills. Problem solved.

Thanks for your time, and the space to type this. Hopefully I have explained myself fully and no one will have any questions in regards to where I stand, which if you must know is on my own two feet, unless of course I am slow dancing.

PsyJack
The white boy with no sense of. . . of . . . rythmn.
User avatar
crizh
Mongoose
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:24 pm

unaccustomed as I am...

Postby crizh » Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:47 am

I'm never usually the voice of reason in such discusions but...

There is more, in my mind, to a character class than just skills. Certain classes have more class abilities than others. The more powerful those abilities are the fewer skill points the class gets. One of the Rogues class abilities is a focus on skills which why it gets many more skill points than any other class. Bear in mind that many skills (pick pockets, hide, move silently etc) used to be class abilities in previous versions of D&D.

As to class/cross-class, while it is possible to learn skills that are not directly related to your profession it is harder to do. Doctors spend years learning their professional skills. I don't know of any Medical Schools round these parts that teaches flying as an elective course.

The point being that any non-professional skills have to be learned in ones spare time as hobbies. Which is kinda the point of the Hobby feat.

Course people are free to do what they like in their own campaigns...
Trust the Computer, the Computer is your friend...
User avatar
psyclonejack
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Waterloo, IA

Postby psyclonejack » Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:59 am

crizh,

Your points are well made about balancing class abilities with skill points. However, I still do not understand your cross class arguement in regard to "Hobby Skills"
Crizh wrote:As to class/cross-class, while it is possible to learn skills that are not directly related to your profession it is harder to do. Doctors spend years learning their professional skills. I don't know of any Medical Schools round these parts that teaches flying as an elective course.
One players after first level aren't going to a Medical School are they? Any increase in skills comes from practice and field experience. But anyway . . .

Are stating that a Doctor, only because he is a doctor, can not learn at the same rate as a pilot. IE: Two people given the same information to learn, one will learn it faster or slower than the other. Simply because of their Job Title? ( I feel sorry for all the burger flippers, cause that means they won't learn anything else and can never better themselves without a lot of work!! )

OR,

Are you stating that a person only has so much time in which to learn new things? And since a Doctor already knows the basics, he can at his next level, place only a small amount of time into learning updated techniques (1 point) and still be in the top of his field (max ranks) Where as, if he spends the same time (1 point) in anything else he just won't get it as well as other that do it for a living (1/2 max ranks) To me this doesn't make since because if someone has been focusing on a couple of "Cross class" or "Hobby Skills" they would know just as much as some that do it for a living, and have the same basic insight.

So you can understand my confusion. As a game mechanic, I can see it for a fantasy campaign, where there is a small skill pool that is needed by the party. It doesn't cause much issue. However, when you move into a field like B5 where skills become a MAJOR part of the game, I do not see the need for cross class. It causes too many problems.

Anyway, as you said, to each there own.
PsyJack
Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:36 pm

For purposes of the balance not being a class skill for a technomage for purposes of the prestige class. I haven't started reading the technomage book (currently reading "The Passing of the Technomages" books).
Couldn't the character take a level or two in a class that gives Balance as a class skill?
PottsBr
Stoat
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:56 pm
Location: Westmont IL

Postby PottsBr » Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:22 pm

The cross-class skills aren't about being realistic. If we were trying to be realistic, we'd junk the class/level system altogether and go with a points based system where you buy all your character's abilities, like hero system or gurps.

Cross-Class skills are all about play balance, where a character's strengths in one area are countered by weaknesses in another to keep everyone on a more or less even footing. In most cases, your scientist class character who wants to be a pilot should multi-class into a class that gets pilot as a class skill and put his points there if he wants to be a professional pilot.

As I understand it though, this does not work for the Technomage who cannot multiclass. Can someone who has read the rules confirm that?

So, your Doctor (Scientist Class) wants to learn how to fly a Starfury. He goes to his buddy, Commander Sheridan, and says, "John, I'd love to get qualified in one of those new Thunderbolts." John, with eyebrow raised, says "Okay, Doc." He takes him down to the hanger and after a few weeks of training has him qualified. The character takes a level in officer and spend the skill points on pilot.

The other option, of course, is to use a feat. In this case, your doctor could have used that time to improve his skills as a doctor. He could have taken a medical feat of some sort, etc. Instead, he chose to forego that and become a pilot. He takes the Hobby Feat and can now become a piloting god, at the expense of not being quite as good a doctor as he could have been if he hadn't spent all that time learning to climb and bank.
shalazar_bation
Mongoose
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Barony of MysticGlade

Postby shalazar_bation » Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:54 pm

Well put Pottsbr, and I agree completely.


Shalazar
"oh what a tangled web we wea...." wait never mind...
User avatar
psyclonejack
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Waterloo, IA

Postby psyclonejack » Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:43 am

I see the main answer being put forth is:

Thats the rules! Deal with it.

Thus, my players and I have delt with it. (By creating a simple houserule)
And we will be happy about it. :) Now, I will go back to lurking, and let you discuss other possibilities on a way to fix the Balance Skill issue. However, the way the posts are going. You will prolly just end up having to deal with it B5Fan. Sorry. I tried to offer advice.

L8r,
PsyJack
shalazar_bation
Mongoose
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Barony of MysticGlade

Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:05 am

C'mon Jack, we all love ya! I think everyone was just baseing that off our interpretation of the rules and game play. Every game group, well every strong game group that I have been apart of has had it's own house rules. If you feel that, that house rule suites your group, then awsome! As long as everyone in your group is having fun who cares what the set rules are, weather your playing B5 with the starwars rules, the 2nd ed D&D rules or the hero system rules... if everyone is having fun.... great!


Shalazar
it works... realy... it does!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 11 guests