MAPS, MAPS, and More MAPS!

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
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Yogah of Yag
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MAPS, MAPS, and More MAPS!

Postby Yogah of Yag » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:24 pm

Bjorn the Barbarian wrote:MORE MAPS BY CROM!
What maps do we still need for the Conan RPG that haven't yet been seen? Regions, cities, towns, natural/topographic/terrain features?
Map-features in RoK that were a little off or really wrong?
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Postby MGBM » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:31 pm

Well, as for me my first answer would be very detailed maps to go with the gazetteers that come with the regional sourcebooks. I think these kind of maps are essential to have. I hope Return To The Road Of Kings has many of these to compensate the fact that many of the released regional sourcebooks didn't have such maps.
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Postby Yogah of Yag » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:41 pm

IIRC, Bunce did the maps in RoK, and he was the guy responsible for the Shadizar fiasco, right? Hopefully RttRoK will have more maps. I made one of Numalia based on Vincent's sketch, and passed it on to him. I'd love to do more, but we'll see...

When you consider that Vincent has to comb not only through REH's stuff but also pastiche, the task of making a decent map is a daunting enterprise! :shock:
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Postby Spectator » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:17 pm

just curious, if you want mmaps, read the damned book, and take notes and then get some graph paper and start plotting away.
I'm doing that for the lost city of Alkmeenon in"Jewels of Gwahlur"
For cryong out loud, stop being so dependant, you guys sound like drug assicts.
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Postby Yogah of Yag » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:00 am

Spectator wrote:just curious, if you want mmaps, read the damned book, and take notes and then get some graph paper and start plotting away.
I'm doing that for the lost city of Alkmeenon in"Jewels of Gwahlur"
For cryong out loud, stop being so dependant, you guys sound like drug assicts.
I'm going to ignore your (hopefully) unintentional misspelling, and respond by saying that regional sourcebooks pretty much require maps to help the reader comprehend the texts. I don't think it is too much to ask.
Now if you excuse me, I have to satisfy my terrible assiction to cartography! :lol:
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Postby The King » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:24 am

I also hope Argos and Zingara, among others, will also be included in Return to the road of kings, because they were lacking in the original gazetteer and weren't included in the dedicated sourcebook.
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Postby Spectator » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:48 pm

it was an unintentional misspelling, whoops.
but seriously, why depend on the goose?
the proposition of making a map is not that hard?!?

OK its not hard:
1. read the book
2. If no book, look at the culture (for arguments sake, assume Zingara)
3. find correspponding earth culture: eg midieval spain
4. go to library, and get book or look on internet for resources.
5. look on modern website of city on spain for a map
6. you can see what its old outlines were such as old city walls, town square, and other such items
7. transport your newfound knowledge, plus your Conan knowledge, and make a map; remember to add a few more temples and such since Conan is a polytheistic world.


IT really is that simple.
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Postby MadDog » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:50 pm

IT really is that simple.

If you have the time. Big "if".

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Postby Spectator » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:31 pm

On another note, why should anyone but the GM have a map of a city, its not like your cimmerian can go to the 'travel' section at 'Ye olde nemedian scholars' book store.

I suppose if they spend a few days you could give the PCs a rudimentary map of the town.
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Postby windman » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:19 pm

Spectator wrote:it was an unintentional misspelling, whoops.
but seriously, why depend on the goose?
the proposition of making a map is not that hard?!?

OK its not hard:
1. read the book
2. If no book, look at the culture (for arguments sake, assume Zingara)
3. find correspponding earth culture: eg midieval spain
4. go to library, and get book or look on internet for resources.
5. look on modern website of city on spain for a map
6. you can see what its old outlines were such as old city walls, town square, and other such items
7. transport your newfound knowledge, plus your Conan knowledge, and make a map; remember to add a few more temples and such since Conan is a polytheistic world.

IT really is that simple.
Simple as in stupid.
This is one of the dumbest things I have scene on these boards.


If my toilet breaks, I can go to the library, or go online, and research how to fix it. I can go and buy the supplies spend my free time fixing it myself.
But I have no interest in putting so much effort into a task that I can hire a plumber to do in much less time, and I can enjoy spending my hard earned leisure time doing what I enjoy.

A professional plumber can give me an good return on my investment and make sure I have the time do what I want, maybe play a Conan RPG.

Mongoose has, for the most part, done a wonderful job and I like this product a lot.

But lets face it. It is their profession to take a fantasy world from literature and make it easily accessible and fleshed out to a degree that role-players - WHO PAY THEIR SALARIES BY BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS - and who want them to do their jobs, and do the research, and include adequate and accurate maps that reflect the world in question.

When we buy regional source books with NO MAPS OF THE REGION, we are not getting our moneys worth. I don't think making accurate maps of Hyboria are really that 'simple' anyways. Look at the incredible amount of research Dale Rippke has put into his work to do so. I might, if I am lucky find the time in my life one day to prepare and GM a great Conan RPG game, but I know I will never be able to dedicate myself to the detailed analysis of REH's writings to codify the geography and history of Hyboria as he has.

And any game I can run will be a lot better if I have access to someone else's research of such high quality.

And as a Conan fan, I want that material to be accessible and formated in an easily accessible reference.

I don't mean to be overly negative of mongoose. I really do love this game and appreciate the good work they have done in bringing Conan's world to the table top. I certainly don't want to slight Vincent or any of the other fine writers who have given us so much insight into Hyboria.

But lets at least face the facts that good standardized maps are very important to role players and mongoose has not delivered the kind of attention to maps as the players so obviously demand and deserve.

Why they haven't put Dale on the payroll is beyond me. I would happily pay a few extra dollars per book to have good maps.

I see no reason to apologize for the company and argue it is the responsibly of GMs and players to do the work. I want to pay for quality material, and I am happy to support the of those who will deliver it to me.

rant over
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Postby FailedSpotCheck » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:40 pm

Very good points all. For example, Yogah just made a good map of Numalia. I PM'ed him and he told me it took 8 hours to do! :shock:
I certainly don't have that time to put into making maps. Mongoose should already have people to do that for us.

My 2 bits. 8)
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Postby Spectator » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:04 pm

Spectator wrote:
it was an unintentional misspelling, whoops.
but seriously, why depend on the goose?
the proposition of making a map is not that hard?!?

OK its not hard:
1. read the book
2. If no book, look at the culture (for arguments sake, assume Zingara)
3. find correspponding earth culture: eg midieval spain
4. go to library, and get book or look on internet for resources.
5. look on modern website of city on spain for a map
6. you can see what its old outlines were such as old city walls, town square, and other such items
7. transport your newfound knowledge, plus your Conan knowledge, and make a map; remember to add a few more temples and such since Conan is a polytheistic world.

IT really is that simple.

WINDMAN WROTE THIS:
Simple as in stupid..........
This is one of the dumbest things I have scene on these boards.



I write back:

Well, I very rarely get to be called stupid nowadays, so maybe I should be honored this is the first time in several years (not counting my fiance's opinion).

Obviously take a look at the xoth.net website and take a look at Vincent D's maps, hand-drawn sketches, for the most part. People are raving about Vincent followed the aforementioned method, which you labeled as 'stupid.'

I suppose, it is an honor to be equally stupid as Vincent D.

Ad-hominem attacks are so cool, keep it up; you are a class act!
I still stand by my old premise that the amount of hand-wringing spent over maps like the bogus Shadizar map, is better spent doing the damned map yourself.
You are a GM, use some frikkin imagination.
My ad-hominem attack on Windman's mental state was not posted out of consideration.
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Postby FailedSpotCheck » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:57 am

Perhaps it's time for a visit from the Locky-locky Fairy. 8)
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Postby Axerules » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:05 am

Please guys...take a breath and calm down. 8)

Even if I think that Windman and Failedspotcheck are right about the maps (IMO a professionnal product of quality should include decent ones) personnal attacks could have been avoided.

BTW, I am weak when it comes to drawing and if I pay for a product I don't want to spend hours adding or correcting stuff that should have been done in the first place. It would be easier for me to write down some feats or combat maneuvers than a nice map, but I still prefer having someone else doing it for me: if it was the opposite, I wouldn't buy RPG products.

It doesn't mean that Spectator's opinion is "stupid". I think he's totally wrong, but it could have been said politely. 8)
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Postby windman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:12 pm

Spectator wrote:My ad-hominem attack on Windman's mental state was not posted out of consideration.
Bah! no need to refrain. I'm not an over sensitive type and I can take it.

Perhaps, I'd even deserve it a little.

I really didn't mean it to sound too over-board a personal attack. Certainly it was somewhat the tankards of ale speaking, and small bout of barbarian rage, which we should really not be afraid of indulging in from time to time on a Conan board IMHO.

I do apologize though, if it hurt.

Anyone who tries to run a decent RPG game has got to have some smarts, certainly one who wants to compile his own accurate maps from the source material.

But I was riled up but what I felt was an irreverent and apologetic stance on an important issue A LOT of Conan RPG customers are very disappointed about (and by the booze, too).

Even in that state, I wasn't convinced that you were stupid person, merely that it was a stupid (okay, missguided, even simple) reaction on your part.

I don't think the pressure should be taken off mongoose to deliver the quality we want, simply because we could try to do it all ourselves if we had the time and resources at our disposal. I inferred a dismissive and self-righteous tone that irked me, as it would many a barbarian.

I'll temper my stand that mongoose should work harder to produce maps that accurately reflect the world described by the REH cannon, the better of the pastiche materials, and their own published material with this caveat: I don't want Hyboriea to be too detailed, with the layout of every region set in stone.

Obviously a GM's (and creative players too) will want to find room to put in their own creations, and I strongly think that the official material should leave us lots of room to put in our own additions. Especially in areas like the Black Kingdoms, the border kindoms, and the east i want some rather vague blank regions on the map.

But when there is lots of hard evidence where familiar locals should be placed, I want mongoose to do that work for me and make it available at a glance.
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Postby DaveNC » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:50 pm

I agree. The Conan RPG is fantastic and I have pretty much everything that Mongoose has published for it. However, the biggest weakness of the material is the lack/poor quality of the maps. A Regional sourcebook without a map? That is just not good enough.
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Postby Spectator » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:51 am

Apology accepted, windman.

Your point about holding Mongoose to a higher standard and expecting more from them.

Well, I don't hold them to a higher standard, I think less of them the way have treated their creative talent (especially our American REH scholars), the way they refuse to proofread the stuff that comes out, and the usual issues of MAP, MAPS, MAPS (although in fairness, it's not Mongoose's weakest point). I do have a gripe at the 2nd Ed which is less of 2nd ed. and more of a marginal revision of the ATL Edition.

I guess my attitude of self reliance is born through the Goose's expected indifference of their clientele.

I am glad to see that their are many of you still left waiting to exhale and be amazed by the 'Goose. I feel as if I have been burnt one to many times.

Just my 2 cents.
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Postby The King » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:17 am

windman wrote: I'll temper my stand that mongoose should work harder to produce maps that accurately reflect the world described by the REH cannon, the better of the pastiche materials, and their own published material with this caveat: I don't want Hyboriea to be too detailed, with the layout of every region set in stone.

Obviously a GM's (and creative players too) will want to find room to put in their own creations, and I strongly think that the official material should leave us lots of room to put in our own additions. Especially in areas like the Black Kingdoms, the border kindoms, and the east i want some rather vague blank regions on the map.
I don't hope so. I prefer when every region of the continent contains as much details as possible , then it is up to each GM to decide whether or not he uses the material at his disposal.
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Postby The King » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:33 am

Spectator wrote: I am glad to see that their are many of you still left waiting to exhale and be amazed by the 'Goose. I feel as if I have been burnt one to many times.
You are right somehow but it isn't as if there were so many Conan game around. Mongoose is in a situation of monopoly it seems.

Anyway they do produce quality and I noticed they were responsive to coherent demands of their customers (e.g. one campaign per year, Hyborian bestiary, etc.).

About their alleged flaws, well, I think they are far from the leading position in this regard.

In fact, my main concern is the relative few number of books released for Conan and the page-count limit of 96 pages they had last year. (Though this problem is now resolved with their in-house printing facility).
Last edited by The King on Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hervé » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:08 pm

I've got to support The King on the matter. I've been playing RPGs for more than 25 years, and I've been a Conan fan for even more than that.
What did we get in all that time?:
-3 TSR AD&D modules (2 of them are total crap)
-A boxed set (also by TSR) with 3 modules (again, two of them are worthless)
-A GURPS supplement with a couple of useless solo adventures.

Now take a look at what Mongoose have published...
Something like 27 books, 2 Pdf adventures, a lot of free material from S&P, and a nice forum to keep the game alive.

Although everything isn't perfect, there's been a lot of really usable material (and even some real gems) and we players should try to remain as much objective as possible.
Of course it doesn't mean by any way that criticism isn't allowed as long as it remains constructive (I ressented the lack of maps as much as anyone). There's been errors, flaws and bad choices from Mongoose, but we should also remember than nobody ever did a better Conan RPG and that without their efforts, there would be no Conan game at all available on the market.

Stop whining because a few numbers were misprinted on the second ed and try to see what Mongoose has done as a whole for the Conan RPG.

That what my 2 cents...
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