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Vehicles in Babylon 5

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:47 am
by Big Pete
there seems to me that there is a problem with scaling for vehicles in Babylon 5

compare these 2 weapons

the Auricon EF-7 ppg (standard EA rifle)
damage 2d8; critical 19-20/*2; 60' range

and the 135mm bilpro
(primary armament of a Thor Main Battle Tank)
damage 2d10+8; critical 20; range 12

the Thor has DV of 9, a DR 15 and 35 hp

the problem that I can see is that there is not that great a differance in damage, a group of infantry men, should be able to take out a Main
Battle tank with standard rifles (considering there are more of them and they are more likely to get criticals.

there should be a much bigger different in damage potential

the hitpoints seem low compared to an individual's hitpoints as well

perhaps for ground vehicles, the DR and HP should be doubled and the damage of vehicle weapons (apart from the CPPGs and the like) and anti tank weapons (such as the Hammer) be doubled.

this would mean that a Thor MBT would have 70 HP, DR 30
its 135mm bilpro would do 4d10+16

compare that to a thunderbolt fighter: DV16; DR8; 35 HP

a Main Battle Tank should have alot more capacity to absorb damage than a Fighter, and they should be better protected.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:22 am
by Dag'Nabbit
I haven't really done a lot of looking at the vehicles, but you're right. The difference is noteworthy. Especially for the MBTs. Your best bet is to just go with what feels right for the campaign your running until Mongoose gives you an official answer. And if you still don't like the answer, go with what works for you.

In counterpoint however. You need to compare what you do to the MBT in order to make it more survivable with the damage dealt by anti-tank weapons, which are meant to kill them in one blow if they hit right. (ie. 10-20% above average damage)

My thoughts, and they won't even cost a penny.

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:01 am
by MongooseMatt
Hi guys,

Vehicles are indeed due for a revision in Babylon 5, starting with starships in August!

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:25 pm
by babakganoosh
msprange wrote:Hi guys,

Vehicles are indeed due for a revision in Babylon 5, starting with starships in August!
He does all that work for you and now you're putting starships in him? Poor guy...

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:32 am
by redlaco
:lol: :D :P
ROFLMAO
Poor August, that must hurt a lot, even if they're only minis...

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:05 pm
by MM
I guess he'll have to take a few bites of each ship to make sure the new product has the proper flavour.

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:15 pm
by August
At least the Excalibur is long and pointy...

I'm worried about the Pak'ma'ra ships. Those are gonna hurt. :shock:


-A

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:35 pm
by lastbesthope
And what about the shadow ships? They have a lot of sticky out bits!

Should I even mention the Planet killers? I mean the effect of scale alone !!!!

:shock:

LBH

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:13 pm
by Dag'Nabbit
Where do you think those living ships that the Vorlons and Shadows have came from in the first place?

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:51 pm
by lastbesthope
Dag'Nabbit wrote:Where do you think those living ships that the Vorlons and Shadows have came from in the first place?
I see a few possible ideas for that ine:

1) The Vorlons/Shadows bioengineered them.

2) Someone else bioengineered them for the Vorlons/Shadows

3) They evolved independently (less likely I'll admit)

4) They are a species offshoot

2) with a little of 3) thrown in is sort of like Moya from Farscape

Just a few ideas off the top of my very tired head.

LBH

ZZZZZZZZZZZ!!

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:22 am
by Vorlon Servant
In several episodes there are lines that mention Kosh's ship being made for him and the Drakh helping the shadows build there technology, which implies that the two races build or grow them themselves.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:14 am
by Dag'Nabbit
Possibly, but my point was that maybe the Vorlons and Shadows have to swallow the egg in order to incubate it. Then, when it's ready, they pass it.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:31 am
by Jal
i seem to remember from one of the B5 novels that the Shadows had used a small animal as the basis for an anti-teep weapon, if a teep probed it, the weapon activated and killed or damaged teeps for miles around, so i would say that the Shadows at least adapted animals to suit their needs.

i think it was the book covering Anna Sheridan and Mr Morden (Touch of your Shadow, Whisper of your Name).

we also know that the Vorlons can genetically manipulate people (making telepaths), so they could also make their own ships, either adapting animals or designing their own from scratch.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:18 am
by El Cid
jal wrote:i seem to remember from one of the B5 novels that the Shadows had used a small animal as the basis for an anti-teep weapon, if a teep probed it, the weapon activated and killed or damaged teeps for miles around, so i would say that the Shadows at least adapted animals to suit their needs.

i think it was the book covering Anna Sheridan and Mr Morden (Touch of your Shadow, Whisper of your Name).

we also know that the Vorlons can genetically manipulate people (making telepaths), so they could also make their own ships, either adapting animals or designing their own from scratch.
As I recall the device you are reffering to resembled a "mouse" and was called or thought of as a mouse because of that. Also, x-rays showed a spine and they decided that it was a creature.

Maybe you're right and maybe not.

My own interpitation is that like the pilots of the Shadow ships, the other Shadow devices required a living component to make them work.

IMHO, that would make the Shadows very evil as they used intelligent beings without reguard for their rights to live free.

Sidney

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:00 pm
by Jal
IMHO, that would make the Shadows very evil as they used intelligent beings without reguard for their rights to live free.
ahem.... i`m sure all of the humans, drazi, minbari etc just loved the way the vorlons genetically engineered them to be telepaths, as they used intelligent beings without reguard for their rights to live free, as well.

good and evil is in the eye of the beholder and in the social mores of the that society, both the Vorlons and the Shadows thought that they were doing what was best for the younger races, if you really want evil, try the aliens from Thirdspace instead. :wink:

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:21 pm
by El Cid
jal wrote:
IMHO, that would make the Shadows very evil as they used intelligent beings without reguard for their rights to live free.
ahem.... i`m sure all of the humans, drazi, minbari etc just loved the way the vorlons genetically engineered them to be telepaths, as they used intelligent beings without reguard for their rights to live free, as well.

good and evil is in the eye of the beholder and in the social mores of the that society, both the Vorlons and the Shadows thought that they were doing what was best for the younger races, if you really want evil, try the aliens from Thirdspace instead. :wink:
I would disagree that the Vorlon intervention by creating teeps is on the same level of evil as what he Shadows did to provide pilots for their ships.

In fact, I'd argue that it could be viewed as "good" since it gave those races a weapon to defend themselves against the Shadows and the Shadows' allies.

Also, the teeps still were allowed to choose for themselves how the would use their abilities whereas the Shadow pilots were brainwashed to serve the machine.

Sidney

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:01 pm
by frobisher
El Cid wrote:I would disagree that the Vorlon intervention by creating teeps is on the same level of evil as what he Shadows did to provide pilots for their ships.

In fact, I'd argue that it could be viewed as "good" since it gave those races a weapon to defend themselves against the Shadows and the Shadows' allies.
Er, not quite (though I'm more Pro Vorlon than Shadow). The Vorlons propogated the telepaths so that the Vorlons had weapons they could use against the Shadows.

And, until and only if Mongoose contradicts it, current B5 canon has it that the Vorlons engineered the common telepath "frequency" into the younger races so that the CPUs the Shadows were using in their ships, now that they daren't risk themselves in that role would be vulnerable.

A Shadow piloted ship (unheard of in the current era) isn't susceptible to telepathic interference.

The Vorlons rather than preventing the Shadows taking younger races as CPUs were relying upon it...

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:08 pm
by Jal
I would disagree that the Vorlon intervention by creating teeps is on the same level of evil as what he Shadows did to provide pilots for their ships.
and i would disagree that either races actions were inherently evil at all.

their actions were high handed and by our current standards, ammoral, but not evil.

neither the shadows nor the vorlons exterminated races just for the hell of it (at least not until the end, when the vorlons (who were apparently the good guys) totally lost the plot and starting to spring clean the galaxy). :roll:

i would consider the Dilgar more evil than either of them, if you want pain and genocide those are the guys to look at.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:00 pm
by PottsBr
So the Shadows take living beings and hardwire them into their ships as CPUs to fly them. We are assuming that no Shadows are actually aboard most of the time. What do the Vorlons do?

Are their ships so advanced and intelligent that they have no need of pilots? Are Vorlons actually flying them? Are they in fact doing exactly the same thing as the Shadows and just haven't been caught?

Several episodes seem to indicate that the Vorlon ships are sentient and self aware. The Vorlons may essentially be using unmanned drones for their warships, only carrying other beings when convenient. On the other hand, as no one has ever seen the inside of a vorlon ship, they could have a living being linked into them, providing the intelligence. That could explain why the vorlons were so secretive about their ships, only allowing a human aboard if he was rendered unconscious first. When scanned, Kosh's ship registered one non-human life form. It always seemed strange that the living ship would scan that way. What if the life form had been a pilot, just like on a Shadow vessel.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:34 pm
by El Cid
Good point.

I had never thought of a Vorlon ship that way.

I guess I had thought of them more along the lines of a pet dog.

Sidney