D&D 4th (probably to be released soon) and Conan

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
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thulsa
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Postby thulsa » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:31 pm

msprange wrote:Conan is all about Old School anyway :)
Amen to that! :-)

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Postby Sutek » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:53 am

Watch. D&D 5th Edition will be like this:

STAT - don't roll any d6 or use points, just write in a 17 or an 18

SKILL - This is +2 to whatever you want to do unless you have FEAT

FEAT - This makes either STAT +1 or SKILL +2

Play.

:roll:
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Postby Tathlum » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:49 am

Wait a supporter of a version of D&D where all you stats go up one every 4 levels is complaining because 5th edition D&D, which exists only in his head, has stats that are too high? Why?
Oh I know, because D&D has gone 3.0-3.5-4 in only 8 years time. While the game he likes went Conan-Atlantean-2nd Ed in less?

Seriously, get off the high horse. I'm sick of reading cynical, fantastical, hyperbole. You want to critisize 4th edition/D&D/WotC go ahead. But critisize what they actualy do, not for imaginary crap.
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Postby LilithsThrall » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:18 am

Seriously, get off the high horse. I'm sick of reading cynical, fantastical, hyperbole. You want to critisize 4th edition/D&D/WotC go ahead. But critisize what they actualy do, not for imaginary crap.[/quote]

In 3x DnD, a stat goes up every four levels. In Conan, all stats go up every six levels.
That's true.
However, in Conan, characters are not defined by the magic items they carry - they generally don't carry any magic items.
Atlantean is not a separate edition of the game. Its not even like version 1.5. The changes between 2nd ed and 1st aren't even as severe as to make 2nd ed version 1.5 - it mostly just put stuff that was spread out into separate books all into one book (for example, it put the Temptress in the core PHB).
To compare that to DnD's revisions is like comparing apples and oranges.
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Postby Tathlum » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:55 am

And apparently thats the logic for 4th edition aswell. More stats less magic.

The changes between Conan and Atlantean are small granted. But Conan has only been around since about 2003 right? So even Conan-Conan 2nd edition is still the same time from 3.5-4 for D&D.
Either way its far closer than making up a 5th edition and slagging it.
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Postby Clovenhoof » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:17 pm

Conan Atlantean Edition was not technically a separate edition, but a major bugfix and cleanup after the 1st printing. Typos and other writing errors were corrected, rules clarified and (some, not all) contradictions resolved. In short, there were a lot of necessary changes. The basics of the game, like classes and combat rules in general, stayed the same.

As opposed to that, D&D 3.0 _worked_. There were no typos in the books (none that I know of), and the whole system was playable. 3.5 did not fix any bugs, it reworked some rules (and classes) to adjust the _balance_ of the game. For instance, the ability buff spells were nerfed to no end, the previously weak Ranger got completely rewritten, and so forth. It even installed a new core class.
That's a _totally_ different cup of tea compared to the changes between Conan 1st printing and AE.

Actually, the step from 3.0 to 3.5 is comparable to the step from Conan 1st to 2nd. There we also have some balance adjustments (like Defensive Blast), a new core class (Temptress), and other small tweaks.
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Postby Tathlum » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:42 pm

LilithsThrall wrote:
In 3x DnD, a stat goes up every four levels. In Conan, all stats go up every six levels.
That's true.
No. In Conan 1 stat goes up every 4 levels just like D&D starting at 4th level. All stats go up every 4 levels starting at 6th.

@Clovenhoof.
Clearly the 2 cases are not the same. However I still think they are similar enough to make a point. Mongoose released 3 physical books for the same game in about 5 years. For a good reason. Wizards of the Coast are releasing 3 players handbooks in 8 years for a different but equaly valid reason.
My point was simply that 1 company got a whole lot of flak for this and the other didn't.

There seems to be a definite Mongoose = good and WotC = evil undercurrent to the Forum recently. Normally this isn't a problem. Mongoose fans on a Mongoose forum is normal. But come on, has it really reached the stage where we can't even mention 4th edition without hyperbole. Remember I posted in reply to a post slagging off a fictional 5th edition. A lot of post seem to be anti- WOTC or 4th edition simply for being WotC of 4th edition. I'm just looking for a little more balence.
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Postby LilithsThrall » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:17 pm

Tathlum wrote: Clearly the 2 cases are not the same. However I still think they are similar enough to make a point. Mongoose released 3 physical books for the same game in about 5 years. For a good reason. Wizards of the Coast are releasing 3 players handbooks in 8 years for a different but equaly valid reason.
My point was simply that 1 company got a whole lot of flak for this and the other didn't.
What -exactly- about the two cases is similar enough to make -what- point?
Remember that the entire core Conan game system is in one book, whereas the entire WotC game system requires PHBs, MMs, and DMGs (I use the plural there because WotC has said that they plan to release a new PHB, MM, and DMG -every year- in 4e). So, while Conan released Conan, AE, and 2nd ed in five years, WotC released two PHBs, two DMGs, and two MMs in 8 years (actually -far- more than that when you add in PHB 2, DMG 2, etc.)
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Postby Sutek » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:48 am

Tathlum wrote:Clearly the 2 cases are not the same. However I still think they are similar enough to make a point....My point was simply that 1 company got a whole lot of flak for this and the other didn't.
So, your snide, "off my high horse" comment was fine, so long as your point is made that I wasn't defending WotC with my snide comment. :roll:

WotC isn't "evil", but they are money grubbing weasles. (lol) They're changing a perfectly good system, as evidenced by the continuing success of Conan) to get sales back and (more to the point) to do away with the OGL that has spawned such successes as Conan.

What WotC is doing, as per my sarcasm above, is over-simplifying and spreading thin the basis of the operative D20 engine. That's fine, I wish them the best. I just aint on that band wagon. Everything I've seen of the next version stinks on ice, and, trust me, I've seen my share of crap RPGs in 30+ years of playing the things.

Oh, and LilithsThrall....good on ya, mate. Nice summation....words out of my mouth... :wink:
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Postby Tathlum » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:03 am

LilithsThrall wrote:
What -exactly- about the two cases is similar enough to make -what- point?
Remember that the entire core Conan game system is in one book, whereas the entire WotC game system requires PHBs, MMs, and DMGs (I use the plural there because WotC has said that they plan to release a new PHB, MM, and DMG -every year- in 4e). So, while Conan released Conan, AE, and 2nd ed in five years, WotC released two PHBs, two DMGs, and two MMs in 8 years (actually -far- more than that when you add in PHB 2, DMG 2, etc.)
You just said my point. The Conan core is one Book we have seen 3 times. D&D's core is 3 books we've seen twice and will see a third this year. For 1 company this is fine, the other makes them "money grubbing weasels". I simply think it's fine for both.

@Sutek
My post may seem unfairly snide to you personally, as it was your post I responded to. Sorry, did not mean to single you out. It was merely a snide shot at all the rants about Mmorpg-clones, dumbing down, care-bear, PC, shoddy WotC, snide comments the thread had degenerated to. 4th edition may turn out to suck, but until its actually out this is all paranoid, ill-informed gibberish.

All WotC is doing is releasing a product. 3.5 works as you say, but it takes a lot of prep time and combat works a little to slowly. Some classes are badly balenced. If they can fix these problems, as they aim to, then I want that product.
4th edition hurts no-one. 3.5 can still be played. Companies can still use the 3.5 OGL for Conan, Spycraft, True20 etc. 4th edition gives more choice, not less and it is completely up to you weither you switch or not. I could understand the hostility if the change killed of Conan or forced it to update to 4th edition, but it doesn't. The OGL is still there, Conan and other OGL products still legal.
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Postby LilithsThrall » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:06 pm

Tathlum wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
What -exactly- about the two cases is similar enough to make -what- point?
Remember that the entire core Conan game system is in one book, whereas the entire WotC game system requires PHBs, MMs, and DMGs (I use the plural there because WotC has said that they plan to release a new PHB, MM, and DMG -every year- in 4e). So, while Conan released Conan, AE, and 2nd ed in five years, WotC released two PHBs, two DMGs, and two MMs in 8 years (actually -far- more than that when you add in PHB 2, DMG 2, etc.)
You just said my point. The Conan core is one Book we have seen 3 times. D&D's core is 3 books we've seen twice and will see a third this year. For 1 company this is fine, the other makes them "money grubbing weasels". I simply think it's fine for both.

@Sutek
My post may seem unfairly snide to you personally, as it was your post I responded to. Sorry, did not mean to single you out. It was merely a snide shot at all the rants about Mmorpg-clones, dumbing down, care-bear, PC, shoddy WotC, snide comments the thread had degenerated to. 4th edition may turn out to suck, but until its actually out this is all paranoid, ill-informed gibberish.

All WotC is doing is releasing a product. 3.5 works as you say, but it takes a lot of prep time and combat works a little to slowly. Some classes are badly balenced. If they can fix these problems, as they aim to, then I want that product.
4th edition hurts no-one. 3.5 can still be played. Companies can still use the 3.5 OGL for Conan, Spycraft, True20 etc. 4th edition gives more choice, not less and it is completely up to you weither you switch or not. I could understand the hostility if the change killed of Conan or forced it to update to 4th edition, but it doesn't. The OGL is still there, Conan and other OGL products still legal.
let me get this straight because I'm still not sure I'm following you.
Conan released 1 ed, AE, and 2nd ed - books which are backwards compatible (you need a page or two of extra notes available in these forums to use 1e with 2nd ed, but that's rather trivial) (and many of our players use books from different editions in the same campaign), and each edition reduced the number of books which were needed (by moving stuff to the PHB wherever possible).
DnD moved from 3.0 to 3.5 to 4.0 (and, again, let's remember that 4.0 will have new PHBs, DMGs, and MMs published -each year-). Moving from each edition involved significantly more changes than can be captured on a page or two of notes and the editions did not compile needed informaton, rather it kept all that information spread out across several splat books.
The only similarity in these two cases is that both companies have upgraded the version of their game. EVERYTHING about how these two company's actions are fundamentally different is irrelevant in your mind.
Does that summarize your position accurately?
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Sutek
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Postby Sutek » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:24 am

Tathlum, sometimes "attitude" is reading between the lines in forums like this. No worries.

But I still say 1 book for $50 versus 3 books for $30-$40 each. :wink:
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Postby Hoghose » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:05 pm

@Tathlum:

It seems to me that you are quite subjective yourself when it comes to WoTC. You cant possibly know if 4e is all good or bad either.
These are all just opinions and, as far as I can tell, most of them here are somewhat based on experience. Nothing wrong with having opinions... whether they are positive or negative.

Ergo: Both you and all the others here are entitled to having them.

Personally I dont like the d20 system much at all, no matter what edition, but it works well enough. The whole idea with levels is somewhat silly, if you ask me.
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Postby emirikol » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:10 pm

I'm wondering how the 4E D&D system, which will focus less on magic items and will have a longer sweet-spot will work for my CONAN D&D campaign. I imagine that my current "spellcasters are requred to multiclass with a non-spellcaster class" house rule will need revision ;)

In D&D, "races" feel like something "statistical" just to make something "different." I've seen it in Conan RPG where peopel choose a race just because of the stats and not the culture.

In both cases, more cultural background should be implemented and then perhaps both camps could get out of the "munchkin fantasy roleplaying game." FOr example: CLANS could be chosen for each race rather than just adding a new race or "sub" classes. For example, SHEM has tribes like the Zuagir (and add about 10 other) that could get a smaller write up and inclusion. Players then could play a shem and a shem and a shem and a shem rather than feeling like they're all the same with lack of background.

Anyways, that's where I feel 4E D&D will fall short. They throw out a couple new races and everybody's group will suddenly be full of dragonfarts and thieflings..until they tire of those and demand that WotC barf out another set of the "Savage" series so that you can play a flaming ball of squid juice (BUT IT'S GOT A +5 CON BONUS..SWEET!).

The more D&D get's pulled from character RP depth to the lowest common denominator computer programmer statistical analysis mentality, the more our hobby fail to catch on with 'normal kids.' There needs to be a sense of ambiguity and "feel" to the game rather than "I KNOW BECAUSE I ANALYZED THE NUMBERS" attitude ;)

Conan brings that feel. The CRPG tries to bring that feel. D&D worlds don't bring that feel for me but it certainly allows me to run a Conan game to my liking with a few house rules and some cultural variants for the human.

jh


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Postby warzen » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:48 am

The latest info/rumors are speaking about a per company choice for supporting 3E or 4E.

More info here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... ge=1&pp=30

If this is true, I think a lot of publishing companies will create a sister one to produce the product for the other version of D&D.

W.

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