D&D 4th (probably to be released soon) and Conan

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D&D 4th (probably to be released soon) and Conan

Postby MGBM » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:50 pm

Ok, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome shows a countdown clock. Then I find this in a site I go to.



August 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) – Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, http://theminiaturespage.com/man/wotc/ at TMP">Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.

The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.

The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.

"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at http://theminiaturespage.com/man/wotc/ at TMP">Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."

http://theminiaturespage.com/man/wotc/ at TMP">Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.

Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.


Then found this message as well:



Hello All.

The announcement of 4th Edition is a pretty big event for all RPG fans. It's a huge event for all of us at Wizards of the Coast, including WotC staff and our WizO support team. We understand that this is something many of you are going to feel very passionate about in a number of ways.

We've created this forum for few reasons. We want everyone to have a single discussion forum where they can get answers and information directly from the D&D staff. We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas. Additionally, I want to have a single forum where our community can post their hopes, fears, concerns, and dreams about 4E. This will make it easier for the D&D staff to read community feedback, and to (hopefully) provide a lot of answers to your questions.

The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts.

If you have concerns, questions, or issues about the forum moderation taking place after the 4th Edition announcement, I've created a thread here where you may discuss your concerns.

Finally, please try to be respectful in your posts and comments. Be nice to other posters, the WizOs, and WotC staff. The WizOs will be enforcing all Code of Conduct rules on all forums as usual.

If you have any suggestions or ideas on how I can do a better job of helping to facilitate communication between the D&D Staff and the Community, I've created a thread here.

Thanks!
-Mike
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Don't know how reliable this information is, but what if this is true? Conan 2ed coming now but if D&D 4th comes out in May, what will this mean to our favourite RPG, Conan?

As a chinese saying goes, we are living in interesting times.


Edit: Here's the thread in General Discussion http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... highlight=
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Postby shouit » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:07 pm

Absolutely nothing, most likely. WoTC cannot revoke the OGL even if they wanted to. And if they are planning on licenses 4th Edition to people, they will not want it changed from their own rules. That being the case, the stuff that makes Conan, Conan, wouldn't be able to be ported, so I would hope Mongoose would stick with 3.5 OGL.
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Postby The King » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:58 pm

I don't really care for the new DD edition but I hope we won't have a Conan 3rd edition in 2 years.
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Postby toothill man » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:02 pm

if you count the reprinted edition as 2 we are already on 3 :shock: :lol: but as I take all to be tweaks still think we are still on verson one or just maybe version 1.3 :? 8) :lol:
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Postby Ganconer » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:03 pm

WotC just released a 2nd edition of their Star Wars game too. Basically from what I understand it is somewhere between the D20 rules and the Star Wars miniatures rules. Basically a watered down version. From the description given it sounds like they are now doing the same thing with D&D.

My guess is they are just trying to sell more books and mini's together to a younger audience.

I for one am not interested in anything they publish anymore....I say Mongoose all the way :)
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Postby Bjorn the Barbarian » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:04 pm

I did go out and buy the new Star Wars Saga edition, which was a "test run" for the new 4.0 D&D rules. I was not impressed. It seems to me that they are going heavily towards a miniature rules set to support their "minis" combat line versus the more roleplaying side of the house. :?

Just my two coppers.

As for me, I plan on staying with Conan and HARP (an ICE product). I am not going to fork over a bunch a money for more "new" D&D manuals, plus all the campaign supplemental (i.e. Forgotten Realms) books. They already tried to pull a fast one when they had such a quick turn around time between the 3.0 and 3.5 manuals. I am not going there again. :x

Why don't they just come out with a single supplement book to update the system? Like they did with the old AD&D Unearthed Arcana, versus making the customers buy three "brand new" D&D manuals. Answer: More money!
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Postby Greg Smith » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:33 pm

Bjorn the Barbarian wrote:Why don't they just come out with a single supplement book to update the system? Like they did with the old AD&D Unearthed Arcana, versus making the customers buy three "brand new" D&D manuals. Answer: More money!
Because the changes are so far reaching that a simple update doesn't cover it? Besides gamers usually like their stuff in one book (or 3 in the case of D&D).

Of course a new edition is always a way to make money. But isn't that how business works - sell something that the consumer will buy?

If a game is good, make a new edition. If a movie is good, make a sequel. If a TV series is good, make a spin-off. It is all about producing something that the consumer knows they will like but with a slightly different flavour to make it seem new and interesting.

Besides, if you don't like the new one - play the old one; watch the original movie (now re-released on DVD); watch reruns of your favourite original show.

New editions of games have been around since Basic D&D/AD&D in 1978. It ain't gonna change now. :)
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Postby Krimson » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:32 am

Chris Sims of Wizards R&D wrote:Seriously. There will be an OGL. There will be an SRD. Unfortunately, I can't get into detail because we're still working on the dang thing.
So it is confirmed that there will be an OGL and SRD. What has yet to be determined is whether or not its going to be an Open OGL, or if it will be Open for a price.
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Postby The King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:20 am

Ah! ah! Wizards didn't do much with Star Wars and I wonder what they will provide as sourcebooks for the new game.

With the upcoming 4th DD edition, I wonder whether Wizards won't succeed in killing the RPG industry.
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Postby Majestic7 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:18 pm

I really don't see why 4th Ed. D&D should have any effect at all on Conan. They are two separate games, really. Although Mongoose Conan uses d20 SRD/OGL as its base, it has been refined enough to be distinctively different game. From what I've read about the coming 4th Edition, it would be unsuitable for Hyborian adventures anyway. Too light, simple and...well...not grim enough.
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Postby shouit » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:10 pm

The King wrote:Ah! ah! Wizards didn't do much with Star Wars and I wonder what they will provide as sourcebooks for the new game.

With the upcoming 4th DD edition, I wonder whether Wizards won't succeed in killing the RPG industry.
Alot of people on EnWorld think that WoTC is trying to go more towards the mini based game, more so than now and less roleplaying game. I don't know what to think, other than that I think it is too soon after 3.5 and that this has more to do with cash and less to do with quality of the game.
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Postby The King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:11 pm

shouit wrote:Alot of people on EnWorld think that WoTC is trying to go more towards the mini based game, more so than now and less roleplaying game. I don't know what to think, other than that I think it is too soon after 3.5 and that this has more to do with cash and less to do with quality of the game.
I agree. If one compares the graphic quality and the quantity of what TSR published for ADD 2nd and the every-thing-in-four-color produced by Wizards, there is a big gap.
Of course, TSR went bankrupt in the end but at least they were gamers who still had the pleasure of the gamers in mind.

With D20 Star Wars, they produced almost nothing new that already existed (from WEG) and didn't released many books because minis bring up more moneys.

I have nothing against minis based game but this hasn't much to do with role-playing anymore.
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Postby Majestic7 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:21 pm

Well, you really can't blame a company trying to make money, instead of going to bankrupt by selling products that cost them more than they bring in. WOTC is clearly trying to bring in new players to the gaming scene by combining miniature and roleplaying games. Even though those games might seem too light to be interesting for people like me, bringing in new people to the hobby can never be a bad thing! It means that some of them will trickle away from those light games to some more serious gaming, in turn meaning that some other publishers might keep selling books...

Besides, WOTC has R&D department that knows what kind of games people like to play. They like fun, action-packed adventures and that is what WOTC will try to provide. Saying that 4th Edition is cashing in on players is silly in the sense that nobody is forcing the players to move on to it. You can always keep playing older versions of the game.

In a sense, I kind of think that the RPG publishing will go more and more towards putting things mostly up as PDF's and other similar electronic formats. Quantities of stuff sold really isn't that much. It is a great shame, though. I always prefer having physical books over PDF's.
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Postby The King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:39 pm

Majestic7 wrote:I really don't see why 4th Ed. D&D should have any effect at all on Conan. They are two separate games, really.
Yes and no. D&D has much more influence on the RPG world then as a mere system.
Moreover, Conan RPG and probably Mongoose wouldn't exist if there weren't D&D.
Thus it isn't as much the new forthcoming rules that I fear as the influence they may have.
Last edited by The King on Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:48 pm

Majestic7 wrote:Well, you really can't blame a company trying to make money, ...
That's right but keep in mind that this is a gaming company. It's not the same as selling food or weapons. The final objective is one of leisure.

My approach is that I think Wizards doesn't rely as much on creativity as TSR did in its time. They keep producing sourcebooks about the Forgotten Realms or Eberron as in a production line but I don't recognize the magic of imagination anymore.
I also think that mini based game with bring more players toward tabletop or board game rather than toward RPG.
For me, Wizards of the Coast sell Magic CCG's and minis before selling RPG's.
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Postby Banesfinger » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:02 pm

Majestic7 wrote:I really don't see why 4th Ed. D&D should have any effect at all on Conan. They are two separate games, really. Although Mongoose Conan uses d20 SRD/OGL as its base, it has been refined enough to be distinctively different game.
I think you have answered your own question here: if Conan is based on d20 rules....AND those d20 rules change....chances are Conan will also change to fit the new rules.

This is especially true if the new 4e rules address problematic areas of the game.
WotC wrote: ...clunky rules, such as the grappling rules - to which we are assured, we can say goodbye!..."
Majestic7 wrote:From what I've read about the coming 4th Edition, it would be unsuitable for Hyborian adventures anyway. Too light, simple and...well...not grim enough.
Why do you assume that a rule system for Conan must be "heavy" or "complex"? (I do agree it must be grim).

From the WotC press conference on 4e, it looks like the new system would be a better fit for Conan.
ENWorld wrote: ...the "christmas tree" effect, whereby characters are loaded down with magic items, buff spells and other magical effects was one of the designers' goals to remove..."
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Postby Majestic7 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:28 pm

Banesfinger wrote: I think you have answered your own question here: if Conan is based on d20 rules....AND those d20 rules change....chances are Conan will also change to fit the new rules.

This is especially true if the new 4e rules address problematic areas of the game.
Yes, but there is no _need_ to change. If the developers want to, that is another thing entirely, but it is not automatic thing that happens with a snap of fingers.
Why do you assume that a rule system for Conan must be "heavy" or "complex"? (I do agree it must be grim).
With light, I meant more of atmosphere than complexity of rules. In SW Saga Edition it is almost impossible for a character to die - that is one example of "light" ruleset that is directly against the spirit of Conan. However, this is all speculation. To tell the truth, I don't care much about the coming 4th Edition. Once it comes out, there is time to see if it really changes anything. The amount of speculation surrounding it is mostly quite ridicilous - people either bashing or adoring it before they even know anything but vague adjectives about it.
From the WotC press conference on 4e, it looks like the new system would be a better fit for Conan.
ENWorld wrote: ...the "christmas tree" effect, whereby characters are loaded down with magic items, buff spells and other magical effects was one of the designers' goals to remove..."
If it is still D&D, it will not fit Conan. D&D by default is high-fantasy heavily based on gamist perspective of roleplaying, with heavy emphasis on rollplaying. Although the 4th Edition might and most likely will make the magic system less complex, I highly doubt that they would remove things that most D&D fans adore - such as acquiring nice magical loot and fiddling with thousand spells. If they change the very basic concept of D&D away from those things, sure, than it might fit.

However, empty speculation is just empty speculation. I don't care much for hype, especially as most promises given in advance of new games tend to turn out to be just hot air. The hype tactics of computer games have made ample show of that.
Last edited by Majestic7 on Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yogah of Yag » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:28 pm

I've been trying this morning to log onto Wizards' site, but no luck.

I think it's 99% hype anyway.

It's altogether possible that WotC is trying to steer the future of the hobby toward the "MTV Generation" who were raised sitting zombie-like in front of a TV or video game screen with their hands surgically attached to a joystick (or whatever they call it these days), and no real human interaction, save their parents yelling at them in vain to clean up their rooms and eat their vegetables. :roll: Minis, Digital Initiative, online content: IOW, less pen-&-paper, more binary, more electronic, more juvenile, less for us grizzled grognards. :cry:

[daydream mode]
Then again, the RPG biz came out of historical wargaming, and perhaps things will eventually come full-circle. People will tire of flights of fantasy and wish for a more realistic, grounded hobby. [/daydream mode]
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Postby VirtualMachine » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:52 am

I'm definitely a little non-plussed at the focus on miniatures - 3/3.5 was bad enough for that in my book - one more piece of clutter to have on the table to pull the player's mind out of the game.
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Postby emirikol » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:37 pm

Majestic7 wrote:
Banesfinger wrote: If it is still D&D, it will not fit Conan. D&D by default is high-fantasy heavily based on gamist perspective of roleplaying, with heavy emphasis on rollplaying. Although the 4th Edition might and most likely will make the magic system less complex, I highly doubt that they would remove things that most D&D fans adore - such as acquiring nice magical loot and fiddling with thousand spells. If they change the very basic concept of D&D away from those things, sure, than it might fit.

I agree ENTIRELY. I never could get my group to switch to the ConanRPG rules, so I'm stuck with a D&D house rulebook to bandaid the D&D magic-DEPENDENCE system to run our CONAN campaigns (since 2001). From experience, the D&D system actually works just fine..you just have to really nerf anything and everything about magic to bring it down to earth.

It's a hard habit to break, the magic-dependence system. I've looked into the book of 9 swords, and I think I'm going to start forcing some of that down the players' throats to see if they bite or barf.

Here's a nice adaptation of teh SWSaga system for Conan btw:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204291

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