No Surrender, No Retreat - Release Date?

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No Surrender, No Retreat - Release Date?

Postby El Cid » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:10 am

When do you expect No Surrender, No Retreat to be in the stores?

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Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:30 pm

It is shipping to our warehouse now - I'll try to get a precise date. . .
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Postby ronbogard » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:18 am

I for one can not wait for this book. Is the Warlock class cruiser still going to be in it?
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Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:21 am

No.

But the Shadow Omega is :)
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Postby ronbogard » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:56 am

Shadow Omega :shock: Almost as good as a worlock.
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Postby El Cid » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:27 am

Thanks, Matthew. I want to make sure our local store know when it's out so we can get it ASAP.

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Postby Guest » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:29 am

Since it looks like No Surrender, No Retreat won't hit stores anytime soon, does that mean not to expect the League sourcebook in August anymore?
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Postby ronbogard » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:13 am

I think the league will be coming out in august because thats whn GenCon is. Mongoose has already said a call to arms will be there.
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The warlock never really belonged anyway . . . .

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:43 am

. . . but is it too much to hope that u came to ur senses about leaving out the Vorlon cruiser? You guys at the Mongoose argued that it made no sense to print stats for the nearly invincible first ones, yet this was after you had already printed stats for first one ships (the Shadows) AND announced that the "invincible no young race can stand against them" Vorlons would be in A Call to Arms anyway. :roll:

So how about stats for the Vorlon ships in No Surrender, No Retreat to match up against the Shadow cruisers in Point of No Return (and I'm not talking about the tabletop game), or is that just hoping too much?
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Postby El Cid » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:12 pm

Matt, it's been almost three weeks since you said they were suppose to be shipping to the warehouse and you were going to check on an actual date.

Anything new to report?

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Re: The warlock never really belonged anyway . . . .

Postby skalvar » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:50 pm

Anonymous wrote:. . . but is it too much to hope that u came to ur senses about leaving out the Vorlon cruiser? You guys at the Mongoose argued that it made no sense to print stats for the nearly invincible first ones, yet this was after you had already printed stats for first one ships (the Shadows) AND announced that the "invincible no young race can stand against them" Vorlons would be in A Call to Arms anyway. :roll:

So how about stats for the Vorlon ships in No Surrender, No Retreat to match up against the Shadow cruisers in Point of No Return (and I'm not talking about the tabletop game), or is that just hoping too much?
I'll ignore the insults and address the question.

RPGs are not wargames. By convention (established in the early 17th century for those who care about trivia) all sides/factions in a wargame must have a roughly equal chance to win. One side may overpower another but some other game factor comes to the weaker side's rescue.

RPGs attempt to more closely model the narrative threads holding a setting together. As such, their rules and the structures they use bow more to dramatic convention than the "all sides must be able to win" convention.

In the case of the Shadows, remember something: As frightening as the Shadow's ships seem they were designed to put up a great fight then lose. The Shadows WANT a victor to emerge; that means eventually the victor will have to be able to beat them back a bit.

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Last edited by skalvar on Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby El Cid » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:21 pm

Also, if you recall when the Vorlon ships fought the Shadow ships, it was a very onesided battle.

If my memory is correct, the Vorlons lost none of their ships and only one was shown as getting it's tusk or whatever that was slightly damaged.

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Re: The warlock never really belonged anyway . . . .

Postby frobisher » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:19 pm

skalvar wrote:RPGs are not wargames. By convention (established in the early 17th century for those who care about trivia) all sides/factions in a wargame must have a roughly equal chance to win. One side may overpower another but some other game factor comes to the weaker side's rescue.

RPGs attempt to more closely model the narrative threads holding a setting together. As such, their rules and the structures they use bow more to dramatic convention than the "all sides must be able to win" convention.
It should be noted that in the series the Shadows and Minbari very much had the advantage in most of their engagements. For each Hyperion the EA brought to the table, the Minbari brought a Sharlin, for each G'quan the Shadows brought a Battlecrab. Neither the EA or the Narns were in any danger of winning in a straight fight...
skalvar wrote:In the case of the Shadows, remember something: As frightening as the Shadow's ships seem they were designed to put up a great fight then loose. The Shadows WANT a victor to emerge; that means eventually the victor will have to be able to beat them back a bit.
Erm, not really... you've been buying into the Shadow propoganda ;)

What the Shadows said they wanted (via Morden and Justin) didn't quite gel with their actions (even in the same episode!).

Yes, they wanted conflict to serve evolution, but they were very actively involved in selecting who would "evolve" and who wouldn't. The conflict itself (between the younger races) should have been enough, but no, the Shadows decided to weed out some races themselves, herd the survivors to a location and erradicate them. The very fact that Sheriden organised a fleet from the younger races to save said refugees and force a retreat from the Shadows seemed to have directly honked them off. If what you claim was true, then they'd have said, "Good on you mate, you've evolved" and left him to it - as it was, they decided he needed to be removed from the game.

The fact that the Shadow vessels appear to be weaker than say the Vorlon ones is purely and simply because they are. That's not to say they are any less advanced, just different.
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Postby skalvar » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:57 pm

The Shadows designed their ships in a time before they lost their way....

That said, I've already let myself become far too engaged. It's not my place as a writer of RPG books to suggest what you should think or what is "true" about a world we are all fans of. Though I question the idea of truth when it applies to a fictional world on a theoritical level...I addressed the game design point. I now turn the conversation back over to those who probably know best.

P.S. If you want to know what I personally believe drop by the booth at GenCon and we can all ramble on at length about what we "really think" went on. :D


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Postby frobisher » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:06 am

skalvar wrote:The Shadows designed their ships in a time before they lost their way....
Well yes and no (but then I'm going by the AoG "War of the Ancients" supplement here, which should be required reading IMO for anything related to "Ancient" history in the B5 universe). The big difference with the "modern" Shadow vessels and the Primordial ones is that they are massed produced, forced grown "crap" and not at their maxium potential and no longer piloted by Shadows themselves anymore. but essentially are the same vessels they've always used, even before they started shepard duties.
skalvar wrote:P.S. If you want to know what I personally believe drop by the booth at GenCon and we can all ramble on at length about what we "really think" went on. :D
If you're going to be at GenCon UK I'll definately take you up on that...
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Postby psyclonejack » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:08 am

Don't know about anyone else but I picked up my copy of No Surrender, No Retreat today from my lGS. I am prolly the last to do so, but my game shop isn't that speedy.

I must say that upon first opening NSNR, I had to smile and take a moment to reflect. Thank you, the people at Mongoose for Dedicating the book to the memory of Richard Biggs. It was unexpected, and made me as a fan, nod to myself with a "I won't forget him".

The chart on page 26 is a nice addition that outlines each episode the speculative date of each, page number, and denotes the new piece of technology, item, feat, skill, or rule that was added based on said episode. Again, this is nice, and something I will be using quite often.

I would also like to say thanks for lightening the images in this publication. In the past the images have been darker than I would have liked, but one will find more acceptable ones here.

From my initial scans the new rules are needed and shall be implimented into my campaign quickly. Primarily the Hijacking of Communications.

Lastly, the "Hitchikers guide to the galaxy" has already gotten my imagination going for possible adventures I can throw the characters into just by having them loose their ship and attempt to travel to a destination.

Thanks again,
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Postby redlaco » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:15 am

Thanks Psyclonejack for this review and no, you're not the last one to get it as I won't get mine before mid-August... :cry:

All the improvements you mention are really great; I'm happy to hear about them, especially the lighter images. An index of the rules additions for each episode is a real good idea, and I think a large "meta-index" will be needed down the road when most sourcebooks will be out. That would make a great tool to add to a GM screen, eventually... :)
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:31 am

Well I think I've got you both beat, if I see mine before September I'll be amazed, my FLGS seems to have a 2 month time lag on RPG books. I'm trying out a different local store (with an SG-1 release) to see if they're any quicker. If they are, apart from the books I've preordered already, they'll get my business.

Thing is, I'm kind of running out of shelf space anyway :lol:

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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:40 am

I think I'm going to enter myself in the "Last to receive the book" competition. :)

Let's see, they are going to ship my book from the US. It is going to take it's dear time traveling to NY, where it will be loaded on a plane and flown to Germany. From there it will drive through Eastern Europe to finally arrive at my basecamp. PROBLEM: I won't be here when it finally does arrive; I'll have finally left for home. So...it will then be stuck in the military post office until someone notices that it has to actually go back to the states. Then it will drive to Germany, to be flown to NY, and then onwards to Texas.

Frankly, I'll be amazed if it gets to me by Thanksgiving.
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Postby skalvar » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:45 am

Glad you like it. My playgroup loved playtesting the hitchiking rules.

They loved playing though the interogation rules as well, but that was more of a 'sick, psychotic enjoyment' than good wholesome fun.

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