Question about The Gods (or lack thereof)?

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Damien
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Postby Damien » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:43 am

I never read anywhere that Greek gods could die, though many heroes did.
Actually, the Greek concept of a God can die. The Greek Gods we are largely familiar with, however, never died in the myths. However, don't forget about the gods like the daddy o' Zeus, whom Zeus slew. The Greeks certainly seemed to believe Gods could die. It was just sort of as you said with the Nordic Gods - under specific circumstances - that being murder by another uber-power. You won't find any Conans hacking apart Aphrodite in the original Greek myths, for certain.

That is indeed Homer's Iliad, and a direct translation, not a "novelised version".
Misleading. Homer's Iliad was never written down by Homer. The story we have is what was -eventually- written down, and might not reflect his actual story entirely. Further, it doesn't look like a direct translation of the original surviving texts at all. Direct translations (as direct as we can come through two or three languages) are done in poetic form, as that's how they were written to start with, because they were intended to be recited as such, rather than read as a story.

I'm not saying the quotes are inaccurate, mind you - only that calling them direct translations is misleading.



Anywho. . Gods in Hyboria. I take a page out of the Altar of the Scorpion - a Kull story. For those not familiar, here's the briefest synopsis:

Kid prays to a Scorpion God for salvation 'cause a bad guy is hunting him and his woman. Said bad guy finds kid and his woman and proceeds to manhandle them. Bad guy is stung by a Scorpion and dies.


Was it the answer of the angered God, or was it random? Who knows? And that's exactly how I like my Gods in Hyboria. I like them to be mysterious and questionable. Might they really exist? Sure. They certainly could. But it's far more interesting and true to the setting, in MY opinion, for any actions they take to be easily construed as pure, if unlikely, happenstance. Likewise, just because someone calls something a God, doesn't mean that it really is a God.

Actually, I love using that concept. Barbaric, backwards cultures worshipping Man-Apes or a giant desert scorpion, or a dragon, or whatever. Howard seemed fond of this idea too, and just because he said "They worshipped their strange god with rituals of blood" does not mean he actually intended for the god to be real. It's no different from arguing with a Christian or Jew and saying 'why does God do this if the Old Testament says that' -- using the word 'God' to describe the entity is not an admission of belief in its divinity.
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Postby kintire » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:26 am

A direct translation into English from a book written in latin?
No, from a book written in Greek. It uses the Latin names for the gods because they were considered more familiar to the readership.
You probably know that the Greeks had their own language (or better their own languages) before they were conquered by the Romans?
Don't posture. Of course I do! I said in my post that the TRANSLATION uses the latin names for the gods, and I suspect you and only you read that as the translation is from the Latin. Weren't you complaining earlier that people didn't read your posts? than again, you are also the one who insulted me and then claimed I was rude, so I suppose consistency is too much to ask.
As with Aquinus you just throw some "known" names but you should know that wikipedia isn't the only source of direct information

Ahh, the old "I have no argument so I'll belittle my opponent and claim in the hope the people don't notice" dodge. Funnily enough, I got my information on Howard from reading Howard, and my information on the Iliad from reading the Iliad. I avoid wikipedia: its completely unreliable.
Misleading. Homer's Iliad was never written down by Homer
It was composed orally, that's true. But oral transmission is no less reliable than written if the proper techniques are used, and it was written down by the classical period, which is what most people think of when they say ancient Greece.
Further, it doesn't look like a direct translation of the original surviving texts at all. Direct translations (as direct as we can come through two or three languages) are done in poetic form, as that's how they were written to start with,
Two or three languages? Why? we are perfectly capable of translating it from the original Greek. And there are both prose and poetic translations, because translating the poetic forms is actually quite difficult. Its very hard to get a translation that is both accurate, and scans. If you want a line by line translation, I've found one here:

http://www.library.northwestern.edu/homer/

Its more stilted, but modern and uses the greek names.
Likewise, just because someone calls something a God, doesn't mean that it really is a God.
That depends who calls it one. Certainly, if a character calls something a god, it may or may not be. But if Howard calls it a a god, then it is. Generally, I believe, if something is called a god in the narration; that is to say that no character says it, its part of the descriptive text; then its accurrate. Khosatral Khel, Ollam Onga, the divinity that appears in Shadows in the Moonlight are all described as gods or divine in the text, and Atali and Ymir appear in a story whose title is "Gods of the North".
You would appreciate that I feel your "godly" argumentation persuasive, don't you? Don't you think your argumentation is a bit authoritarian
king, you have to accept something here. It is clear that you have a strong idea what a "god" is. Its an interesting idea. Its not an idea I entirely share, but I can respect it, certainly. However, we are not dealing here with your world, or the real world. Hyboria is a sub creation that was brought into existence by Robert E Howard. He defined the world. He created the world. With respect to the Hyborian world he is the Creator. We are discussing here whether gods are present or absent in the Hyborian world, and indeed what gods are. When discussing Hyboria, ALL that matters is what Howard defined. This is why I pointed out that your diversions into real world thought were off topic: They are completely irrelevant to HOWARD's thought, and in Howards world, Howard's thought is all that matters. We cannot take our preconceptions about what gods are to Howard's writing, we have to derive our definitions from him.

Now, Howard does have a being defined as a god that doesn't seem physically present; namely Mitra. However, it is made clear that this is unusual. Most gods are described by Howard as physical entities, or at least entities that often take physical form, of great but not infinite power. Gods are awesome, ancient and mighty beings, but they are beings whose goals and designs, and even persons, can be meaningfully opposed by the greatest mortal heroes such as Conan or Epimetreus. Deities whose area is not war or combat may not even be that formidable, as Atali wasn't. The parallels with the Iliad are clear.

Now, this isn't your conception of godhood. If it comes to that, it isn't mine either. But it is Howard's, and in his world that is all that matters.
Almost every creature is a god then: the winged thing because it is worshiped by men who he himself transformed into hyenas or even a communuty of gods feared by the common folk (servants of Bit-Yakin).
No. Read the books. The winged thing is described, by Howard in the narration, as the last survivor of an advanced an ancient but earthly race. It is not a god. The servants of Bit Yakin are unknown to anyone, but the goddess of the valley is described, again by Howard in the narration, as a fake cooked up by Bit Yakin. They are NOT gods, and Howard makes that clear.
You see, you can't even read your own language; so why would you tell me you understand what Howard is writing. Troubleshooting help: try and read your book in the other sense.
King, another thing. I'm going to go further than Krushnak. It has been obvious to me for some time that English is, in fact, not your first language. Your English is good, but many of your phrases are constructed very oddly. Its not usually a problem, but you are sometimes very difficult to follow, and you occasionally lapse into incoherence. Krushnak could perhaps have been more tactful, but that paragraph is in fact completely meaningless in English. Push with much strength and look at your own back? No, try again.
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The King
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:33 am

Damien wrote:Misleading. Homer's Iliad was never written down by Homer. The story we have is what was -eventually- written down, and might not reflect his actual story entirely. Further, it doesn't look like a direct translation of the original surviving texts at all. Direct translations (as direct as we can come through two or three languages) are done in poetic form, ....
Indeed, the kintire's quoted text was kind of strange for a Greek account of myth. I would have better understood if that was the synopsys of the next Illiad movie from Hollywood (for much FX and digital toys).
Damien wrote:Actually, I love using that concept. Barbaric, backwards cultures worshipping Man-Apes or a giant desert scorpion, or a dragon, or whatever. Howard seemed fond of this idea too, and just because he said "They worshipped their strange god with rituals of blood" does not mean he actually intended for the god to be real.
You express it better than I did but be cautious Damien or you'll bring the wrath of kyorou, the great mathematician, on you.

I quote him again, just for the fun of this demonstration:
What I meant is : in the Hyborian age, the commonly accepted definition of a god is X. Thus the Hyborian definition of a god (a being of great power, precise nature unknown which can take physical form but therefore can be killed) is X.
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Postby Kyorou » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:44 am

The King wrote:You express it better than I did but be cautious Damien or you'll bring the wrath of kyorou, the great mathematician, on you.
Actually, it is not mathematics but rather semantics. And it makes sense (most of your posts don't and you seem to be more interested in annoying people than in making a point. Eventually, I don't see any reward in debating with the kind of person you are).

What I (we, actually) was/were, most unsuccessfully, trying to explain to you is that, whatever your definition of a "god" may be, it is not the point here because we're not talking about what you think a god is. It's not about you.
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:21 am

kintire wrote:King, another thing. I'm going to go further than Krushnak. It has been obvious to me for some time that English is, in fact, not your first language. Your English is good, but many of your phrases are constructed very oddly. Its not usually a problem, but you are sometimes very difficult to follow, and you occasionally lapse into incoherence. Krushnak could perhaps have been more tactful, but that paragraph is in fact completely meaningless in English. Push with much strength and look at your own back? No, try again.
Thus we are going dirtier...
This makes me think of a thread on the Mongoose forum where someone asked for "black/minority ethnic figures for the battlefield Evolution collection" and some replied it would cost too much and would augment the price of the minis. http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... hp?t=23563

No, I don't think I express myself or write worse than many English-speaking posters on this forum and I've been there for some years now and read many posts on many topics.

What I consider is that there are many foreigners on this forum who aren't native speakers. Would you dare tell them all they can't express themselves well just because you have some arguments with them? You have indeed a curious feeling of superiority. Were you some teacher in Vietnam, India, Irak or South Africa?

I wouldn't say there is some hint of ostracism there through the language barrier but your (dirty) trick to demonstrate that that you can't understand what I meant because I wouldn't be able to express myself sounds out more like someone who has exhausted all his hollow arguments.
After the flies here come the wasps or something akin. But flies usually buzz around some manure or excremental heaps. So I guess you must have been misled. But if if you truly like it, just keep it. I won't compete with you for these.
Last edited by The King on Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:45 am

Kyorou wrote:Actually, it is not mathematics but rather semantics. And it makes sense (most of your posts don't and you seem to be more interested in annoying people than in making a point. Eventually, I don't see any reward in debating with the kind of person you are).
It seems you don't know what semantics really means. Expressed like you did this is exactly the way mathematics are developped through theory and hypothesis. But yours had no coherence and would demonstrate nothing.

As to annoying people, it seems to me you're just doing this. Perhaps you dislike me personally because Damien expressed it the same way and you didn't reply to him.

You know, history is full of backward people trying to unite against individuals so that they might feel superior rather than because their ideas would necessarily be the right ones. Did it never reach your mind that perhaps your argumentation was not convincing?
What I (we, actually) was/were, most unsuccessfully, trying to explain to you is that, whatever your definition of a "god" may be, it is not the point here because we're not talking about what you think a god is.
Yes, I think so; else how would you try and answer the question of the thread? Vincent Darlage put it well as before debating of some subject, it would be appropriate to understand its definition, or at least to agree upon one.
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Postby Kyorou » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:01 pm

This ain't getting us anywhere.

I have no dislike for you, King, but I don't think this debate can bring much from now on.
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Postby kintire » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:34 pm

Thus we are going dirtier...
Yes, you are aren't you?
What I consider is that there are many foreigners on this forum who aren't native speakers. Would you dare tell them all they can't express themselves well just because you have some arguments with them? You have indeed a curious feeling of superiority. Were you some teacher in Vietnam, India, Irak or South Africa?
Interestingly, it is you who interpret "not a first language English speaker" as an insult or demeaning comment. it isn't, of course. Why do you think it is? Also I am not telling you that you can't express yourself well just because I have some arguments with you, I am telling you that a specific paragraph that you wrote is unintelligible. Your English is very good, certainly better than my best second language by a long way, but it isn't perfect and occasionally it is difficult or impossible to follow. OCCASIONALLY. Not always. OCCASIONALLY.

And thats yet another thing. Why this offensive diatribe? Why this pathetic message board psychoanalysis? why the race card? Why the comparison of me with excrement? Are you not the very poster who produced the following:
I didn't feel hurt but insulted. In an argument, one should present one's ideas, not critic the other's or the opponent.
I talked about are nothing as unreal as kintire wanted to define them for me so unpolitely
There have been, at a quick survey, four posts that have been insulting the argument or the poster. They are all from you. They are directed at three other posters including me. Ironically, the first insult launched at me was that I was being hypocritical! Now you are ignoring the entirity of the arguments from my last post (except calling them "Hollow") in favour of a thouroughly offensive string of insults in response to an "insult" you have had to make up. How does that square with your own first comment above?

Oh and again:
You have indeed a curious feeling of superiority
Do I? someone around here does;
You know, history is full of backward people trying to unite against individuals so that they might feel superior rather than because their ideas would necessarily be the right ones.
But I'm not convinced its me! I'm certainly not the one trying to argue about the meaning of a word in a second language with a native speaker! Or trying to tell a native speaker of the language that when my statements don't mean anything, its THEIR fault! sheesh...

By the way, since you will doubtless try to claim that this is some sort of claim that no one can ever understand what you say, let me quote my own earlier post.
Your English is good, but many of your phrases are constructed very oddly. Its not usually a problem, but you are sometimes very difficult to follow, and you occasionally lapse into incoherence
I've bolded the bits you need to remember I've said. Remember, pretending I didn't say them is lying, and its really easily caught, because they are still right there in the timed and dated post.
Indeed, the kintire's quoted text was kind of strange for a Greek account of myth.
No, its pretty typical actually. Its strange for your preconceived ideas about Greek myth, but not for the real thing. Indeed, since it is a QUOTE FROM THE ILLIAD its hard to see how it could be!
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:54 pm

Kyorou wrote:This ain't getting us anywhere.

I don't think this debate can bring much from now on.
Exactly, especially when you express such argument:
you seem to be more interested in annoying people than in making a point
and I just could retort the same to you.

Considering your status I could even wonder whether you didn't come there especially to bother me or other people with your "surely you despise the common man, don't you".

No of course. I was waiting there since September 2004 so that I could annoy people like you and I was just posting non sense and contempt until now. Mongoose be praised to allow me to stay and prey on the feeble minds.

I do not welcome you indeed.
Last edited by The King on Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby kintire » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm

For those who are still interested, if anyone else has survived the bickering, here is a line by line translation of the sections from the Iliad I quoted above. Its from the second site I linked to. You won't find any great differences, but tis well worth reading!
and he swung the pitiless bronze at the lady of Kypros,
IL.5.331 γινώσκων ὅτ' ἄναλκις ἔην θεός, οὐδὲ θεάων
IL.5.331 knowing her for a god without warcraft, not of those who,
IL.5.332 τάων αἵ τ' ἀνδρῶν πόλεμον κάτα κοιρανέουσιν,
IL.5.332 goddesses, range in order the ranks of men in the fighting,
IL.5.333 οὔτ' ἄρ' Ἀθηναίη οὔτε πτολίπορθος Ἐνυώ.
IL.5.333 not Athene and not Enyo, sacker of cities.
IL.5.334 [10ἀλλ' ὅτε δή ῥ'10] ἐκίχανε [11[12πολὺν καθ' ὅμιλον12] ὀπάζων,11]
IL.5.334 Now as, following her through the thick crowd, he caught her,
IL.5.335 ἔνθ' ἐπορεξάμενος [13μεγαθύμου [14Τυδέος υἱὸς13]14]
IL.5.335 lunging in his charge far forward the son of high-hearted
IL.5.336 ἄκρην [15οὔτασε χεῖρα15] μετάλμενος [16ὀξέϊ δουρὶ16]
IL.5.336 Tydeus made a thrust against the soft hand with the bronze spear,
IL.5.337 ἀβληχρήν: εἶθαρ δὲ δόρυ χροὸς ἀντετόρησεν
IL.5.337 and the spear tore the skin driven clean on through the immortal
IL.5.338 ἀμβροσίου διὰ [17πέπλου, ὅν οἱ17] Χάριτες κάμον αὐταί,
IL.5.338 robe that the very Graces had woven for her carefully,
IL.5.339 πρυμνὸν ὕπερ θέναρος: ῥέε [18δ' ἄμβροτον αἷμα18] θεοῖο
IL.5.339 over the palm's base; and blood immortal flowed from the goddess,
IL.5.340 ἰχώρ, οἷός πέρ τε ῥέει [19μακάρεσσι θεοῖσιν:19]
ichor, that which runs in the veins of the blessed divinities;
IL.5.341 οὐ γὰρ [20[21σῖτον ἔδουσ',21] οὐ20] πίνουσ' [22αἴθοπα οἶνον,22]
IL.5.341 since these eat no food, nor do they drink of the shining
IL.5.342 τοὔνεκ' ἀναίμονές [23εἰσι [24καὶ [25ἀθάνατοι23] καλέονται.24]25]
IL.5.342 wine, and therefore they have no blood and are called immortal.
IL.5.343 [26ἣ [27δὲ [28μέγα ἰάχουσα26]27]28] ἀπὸ ἕο κάββαλεν [29υἱόν:
IL.5.343 She gave a great shriek and let fall her son she was carrying,
καὶ τὸν μὲν29] μετὰ χερσὶν [30ἐρύσατο [31Φοῖβος Ἀπόλλων30]31]
IL.5.344 but Phoibos Apollo caught him up and away in his own hands,
IL.5.345 [32κυανέῃ νεφέλῃ,32] [33μή τις [34Δαναῶν ταχυπώλων34]
IL.5.345 in a dark mist, for fear that some fast-mounted Danaan
IL.5.346 χαλκὸν [35[36ἐνὶ [37στήθεσσι [38βαλὼν36]37] [39ἐκ [40[41θυμὸν ἕλοιτο:35]38]39]41]
IL.5.346 might strike the bronze spear through his chest and strip the life from him.
IL.5.347 [42τῇ33] δ'40] ἐπὶ [43μακρὸν ἄϋσε42]43] [44[45βοὴν [46ἀγαθὸς45] Διομήδης:44]46]
IL.5.347 But Diomedes of the great war cry shouted after her:
IL.5.348 εἶκε [47Διὸς θύγατερ47] [48πολέμου καὶ δηϊοτῆτος:48]
IL.5.348 'Give way, daughter of Zeus, from the fighting and the terror. It is
IL.5.349 [49ἦ οὐχ ἅλις ὅττι49] γυναῖκας ἀνάλκιδας ἠπεροπεύεις;
IL.5.349 not then enough that you lead astray women without warcraft?
IL.5.350 [50εἰ δὲ σύ γ'50] [51ἐς πόλεμον πωλήσεαι,51] [52ἦ τέ σ' ὀΐω52]
IL.5.350 Yet, if still you must haunt the fighting, I think that now you
IL.5.351 ῥιγήσειν πόλεμόν [53γε καὶ εἴ χ'53] ἑτέρωθι πύθηαι.
IL.5.351 will shiver even when you hear some other talking of battles.'
IL.5.590 τοὺς δ' Ἕκτωρ [2ἐνόησε κατὰ στίχας, [3ὦρτο δ' ἐπ' αὐτοὺς3]
IL.5.590 Hektor saw them across the ranks, and drove on against them
IL.5.591 κεκληγὼς: ἅμα δὲ [4Τρώων εἵποντο4] φάλαγγες2]
IL.5.591 crying aloud, and with him followed the Trojan battalions
IL.5.592 καρτεραί: [5[6ἦρχε δ' ἄρα σφιν6] Ἄρης καὶ5] πότνι' Ἐνυώ,
IL.5.592 in their strength; and Ares led them with the goddess Enyo,
IL.5.593 ἣ μὲν ἔχουσα Κυδοιμὸν ἀναιδέα δηϊοτῆτος,
IL.5.593 she carrying with her the turmoil of shameless hatred
IL.5.594 Ἄρης δ' ἐν παλάμῃσι [7πελώριον ἔγχος7] ἐνώμα,
IL.5.594 while Ares made play in his hands with the spear gigantic
IL.5.595 φοίτα δ' ἄλλοτε μὲν [8πρόσθ' Ἕκτορος,8] ἄλλοτ' ὄπισθε.
IL.5.595 and ranged now in front of Hektor and now behind him.


IL.5.596 [9[10τὸν δὲ ἰδὼν ῥίγησε10] [11[12βοὴν [13ἀγαθὸς12] Διομήδης:9]11]13]
IL.5.596 Diomedes of the great war cry shivered as he saw him,
IL.5.597 [14ὡς δ' ὅτ' ἀνὴρ14] ἀπάλαμνος [15ἰὼν [16πολέος15] πεδίοιο16]
IL.5.597 and like a man in his helplessness who, crossing a great plain,
IL.5.598 στήῃ ἐπ' ὠκυρόῳ [17ποταμῷ [18ἅλαδε προρέοντι17]18]
IL.5.598 stands at the edge of a fast-running river that dashes seaward,
IL.5.599 [19ἀφρῷ μορμύροντα19] ἰδών, ἀνά τ' ἔδραμ' ὀπίσσω,
IL.5.599 and watches it thundering into white water, and leaps a pace backward,
IL.5.600 ὣς τότε Τυδεΐδης ἀνεχάζετο, εἶπέ τε λαῷ:
IL.5.600 so now Tydeus' son gave back, and spoke to his people:
IL.5.601 [20ὦ φίλοι20] οἷον δὴ θαυμάζομεν [21Ἕκτορα δῖον21]
IL.5.601 'Friends, although we know the wonder of glorious Hektor
IL.5.602 [22αἰχμητήν [23τ' [24ἔμεναι καὶ θαρσαλέον23] πολεμιστήν:22]24]
IL.5.602 to be a fighter with the spear and a bold man of battle,
IL.5.603 [25τῷ δ' αἰεὶ [26πάρα25] εἷς γε θεῶν, ὃς [27λοιγὸν ἀμύνει:27]
IL.5.603 yet there goes ever some god beside him, who beats off destruction,
IL.5.604 καὶ26] νῦν οἱ πάρα κεῖνος Ἄρης [28βροτῷ [29ἀνδρὶ28] ἐοικώς.29]
IL.5.604 and now, in the likeness of a man mortal, Ares goes with him.
IL.5.605 ἀλλὰ πρὸς Τρῶας [30τετραμμένοι [31αἰὲν30] ὀπίσσω31]
IL.5.605 Come then, keeping your faces turned to the Trojans, give ground
IL.5.606 εἴκετε, [32μηδὲ θεοῖς32] μενεαινέμεν [33ἶφι μάχεσθαι.33]
IL.5.606 backward, nor be we eager to fight in strength with divinities.'
[
72[73ἔνθα τίνα πρῶτον τίνα δ' ὕστατον ἐξενάριξαν73]
IL.5.703 Who then was the first and who the last that they slaughtered,
IL.5.704 [74Ἕκτωρ72] τε [75[76Πριάμοιο πάϊς74]76] καὶ75] [77χάλκεος Ἄρης;77]
IL.5.704 Hektor, Priam's son, and Ares the brazen? Godlike
IL.5.705 ἀντίθεον Τεύθραντ', ἐπὶ δὲ πλήξιππον Ὀρέστην,
IL.5.705 Teuthras first, and next Orestes, driver of horses,
IL.5.706 Τρῆχόν τ' αἰχμητὴν Αἰτώλιον Οἰνόμαόν τε,
IL.5.706 Trechos the spearman of Aitolia and Oinomaos,
Οἰνοπίδην θ' Ἕλενον καὶ Ὀρέσβιον αἰολομίτρην,
IL.5.707 Helenos son of Oinops and Oresbios of the shining
IL.5.708 ὅς ῥ' ἐν Ὕλῃ ναίεσκε μέγα πλούτοιο μεμηλώς,
IL.5.708 guard, who had lived in Hyle much concerned with his property
IL.5.709 λίμνῃ κεκλιμένος Κηφισίδι: πὰρ δέ οἱ ἄλλοι
IL.5.709 in a place hard on the Kephisian mere, and beside him other
IL.5.710 ναῖον Βοιωτοὶ μάλα [1πίονα [2δῆμον1] ἔχοντες.2]
IL.5.710 men of Boiotia lived and held the fine fertile country.
λάζετο δὲ [23μάστιγα καὶ ἡνία23] [24Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη:24]
IL.5.840 Pallas Athene then took up the whip and the reins, steering
IL.5.841 αὐτίκ' [25ἐπ' Ἄρηϊ πρώτῳ [26ἔχε [27μώνυχας ἵππους.25]26]27]
IL.5.841 first of all straight on against Ares the single-foot horses.
IL.5.842 [28ἤτοι ὃ μὲν Περίφαντα πελώριον28] ἐξενάριξεν
IL.5.842 Ares was in the act of stripping gigantic Periphas,
IL.5.843 [29Αἰτωλῶν [30ὄχ' ἄριστον29]30] Ὀχησίου [31ἀγλαὸν υἱόν:31]
IL.5.843 shining son of Ochesios, far the best of the men of Aitolia.
IL.5.844 τὸν μὲν Ἄρης ἐνάριζε μιαιφόνος: αὐτὰρ Ἀθήνη
IL.5.844 Blood-stained Ares was in the act of stripping him. But Athene
IL.5.845 [32δῦν' [33Ἄϊδος32] κυνέην,33] μή μιν ἴδοι [34ὄβριμος Ἄρης.34]
IL.5.845 put on the helm of Death, that stark Ares might not discern her.


IL.5.846 ὡς δὲ ἴδε [35βροτολοιγὸς Ἄρης35] [36Διομήδεα δῖον,36]
IL.5.846 Now as manslaughtering Ares caught sight of Diomedes
IL.5.847 [37ἤτοι ὃ μὲν Περίφαντα πελώριον37] αὐτόθ' ἔασε
IL.5.847 the brilliant, he let gigantic Periphas lie in the place where
IL.5.848 κεῖσθαι [38ὅθι πρῶτον38] κτείνων [39[40ἐξαίνυτο θυμόν,40]
IL.5.848 he had first cut him down and taken the life away from him,
IL.5.849 [41αὐτὰρ ὃ39] [42βῆ ῥ'41] ἰθὺς42] [43[44Διομήδεος ἱπποδάμοιο.44]
and made straight against Diomedes, breaker of horses.
IL.5.850 [45[46οἳ δ'43] [47[48ὅτε δὴ46] σχεδὸν ἦσαν48] ἐπ' ἀλλήλοισιν ἰόντες,45]47]
IL.5.850 Now as they in their advance had come close together,
IL.5.851 πρόσθεν Ἄρης ὠρέξαθ' ὑπὲρ [49ζυγὸν ἡνία49] θ' ἵππων
IL.5.851 Ares lunged first over the yoke and the reins of his horses
IL.5.852 [50ἔγχεϊ χαλκείῳ50] μεμαὼς [51ἀπὸ [52θυμὸν ἑλέσθαι:51]52]
IL.5.852 with the bronze spear, furious to take the life from him.
IL.5.853 [53καὶ τό γε [54χειρὶ λαβοῦσα53]54] [55θεὰ [56γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη55]56]
IL.5.853 But the goddess grey-eyed Athene in her hand catching
IL.5.854 ὦσεν ὑπὲκ δίφροιο ἐτώσιον ἀϊχθῆναι.
IL.5.854 the spear pushed it away from the car, so he missed and stabbed vainly.
IL.5.855 δεύτερος αὖθ' ὡρμᾶτο [57[58[59βοὴν [60ἀγαθὸς59] Διομήδης58]60]
IL.5.855 After him Diomedes of the great war cry drove forward
IL.5.856 [61ἔγχεϊ57] χαλκείῳ:61] ἐπέρεισε [62δὲ [63Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη62]63]
IL.5.856 with the bronze spear; and Pallas Athene, leaning in on it,
[1νείατον ἐς κενεῶνα1] ὅθι ζωννύσκετο μίτρην:
IL.5.857 drove it into the depth of the belly where the war belt girt him.
IL.5.858 τῇ ῥά μιν [2οὖτα τυχών,2] [3διὰ [4δὲ [5χρόα καλὸν4]5] ἔδαψεν,3]
IL.5.858 Picking this place she stabbed and driving it deep in the fair flesh
IL.5.859 ἐκ δὲ δόρυ σπάσεν αὖτις: ὃ δ' ἔβραχε [6χάλκεος Ἄρης6]
IL.5.859 wrenched the spear out again. Then Ares the brazen bellowed
IL.5.860 [7ὅσσόν τ' ἐννεάχιλοι ἐπίαχον ἢ δεκάχιλοι
IL.5.860 with a sound as great as nine thousand men make, or ten thousand,
IL.5.861 [8ἀνέρες ἐν πολέμῳ8] ἔριδα [9ξυνάγοντες Ἄρηος.7]9]
IL.5.861 when they cry as they carry into the fighting the fury of the war god.
IL.5.862 [10τοὺς δ' ἄρ' ὑπὸ10] τρόμος εἷλεν [11Ἀχαιούς τε Τρῶάς τε11]
IL.5.862 And a shivering seized hold alike on Achaians and Trojans
IL.5.863 δείσαντας: [12τόσον ἔβραχ'12] [13Ἄρης [14ἆτος πολέμοιο.13]14]
IL.5.863 in their fear at the bellowing of battle-insatiate Ares.
ῥινοτόρος, καὶ πρῶτος Ἀθηναίῃ ἐπόρουσε
IL.21.392 began it, the shield-stabber, and rose up against Athene
IL.21.393 [12χάλκεον [13ἔγχος12] ἔχων,13] [14καὶ ὀνείδειον φάτο μῦθον:14]
IL.21.393 with the brazen spear in his hand, and spoke a word of revilement:
IL.21.394 [15τίπτ' αὖτ' ὦ15] κυνάμυια [16[17θεοὺς [18ἔριδι17] ξυνελαύνεις16]18]
IL.21.394 'Why once more, you dogfly, have you stirred up trouble among the gods
IL.21.395 θάρσος ἄητον ἔχουσα, [19μέγας δέ [20σε [21θυμὸς ἀνῆκεν;20]21]
IL.21.395 with the blast of your blown fury, and the pride of your heart driving you?
IL.21.396 [22ἦ19] οὐ μέμνῃ ὅτε22] [23Τυδεΐδην Διομήδε'23] ἀνῆκας
IL.21.396 Do you not remember how you set on Diomedes, Tydeus'
IL.21.397 οὐτάμεναι, αὐτὴ δὲ πανόψιον [24ἔγχος ἑλοῦσα24]
IL.21.397 son, to spear me, and yourself laying hold of the far-seen pike
IL.21.398 ἰθὺς ἐμεῦ ὦσας, [25διὰ [26δὲ [27χρόα καλὸν26]27] ἔδαψας;25]
IL.21.398 pushed it straight into me and tore my skin in its beauty.
IL.21.399 [28τώ σ' αὖ νῦν28] ὀΐω ἀποτισέμεν ὅσσα μ' ἔοργας.
IL.21.399 So now I am minded to pay you back for all you have done me.'


IL.21.400 [29ὣς εἰπὼν οὔτησε κατ'29] [30αἰγίδα θυσσανόεσσαν30]
IL.21.400 He spoke, and stabbed against the ghastly aegis with fluttering
σμερδαλέην, ἣν οὐδὲ Διὸς δάμνησι κεραυνός:
IL.21.401 straps, which gives way not even before the bolt of Zeus' lightning.
IL.21.402 τῇ μιν Ἄρης οὔτησε μιαιφόνος [31ἔγχεϊ μακρῷ.31]
IL.21.402 There blood-dripping Ares made his stab with the long spear,
IL.21.403 ἣ δ' [32ἀναχασσαμένη [33λίθον [34[35[36εἵλετο33] [37χειρὶ36] παχείῃ35]37]
IL.21.403 but Athene giving back caught up in her heavy hand a stone
IL.21.404 [38κείμενον34] ἐν πεδίῳ38] μέλανα τρηχύν [39[40τε μέγαν τε,
IL.21.404 that lay in the plain, black and rugged and huge, one which men
IL.21.405 τόν32]40] ῥ'39] ἄνδρες πρότεροι θέσαν ἔμμεναι οὖρον ἀρούρης:
IL.21.405 of a former time had set there as boundary mark of the cornfield.
IL.21.406 τῷ βάλε [41θοῦρον Ἄρηα41] κατ' [42αὐχένα, [43λῦσε δὲ γυῖα.42]43]
IL.21.406 With this she hit furious Ares in the neck, and unstrung him.
IL.21.407 ἑπτὰ δ' ἐπέσχε πέλεθρα πεσών, ἐκόνισε δὲ χαίτας,
IL.21.407 He spread over seven acres in his fall, and his hair dragged
IL.21.408 τεύχεά τ' ἀμφαράβησε: γέλασσε [44δὲ [45Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη,44]45]
IL.21.408 in the dust, and his armour clashed. But Pallas Athene laughing
IL.21.409 [46[47καί οἱ [48ἐπευχομένη [49[50ἔπεα πτερόεντα47]48]50] προσηύδα:46]49]
IL.21.409 stood above him and spoke to him in the winged words of triumph:
IL.21.410 νηπύτι' οὐδέ νύ πώ περ ἐπεφράσω ὅσσον ἀρείων
IL.21.410 'You child; you did not think even this time how much stronger
εὔχομ' ἐγὼν [51ἔμεναι, ὅτι μοι μένος ἀντιφερίζεις.51]
IL.21.411 I can claim I am than you, when you match your fury against me.
[21[22[23ὢ18] πόποι23] [24[25[26αἰγιόχοιο [27[28Διὸς26] τέκος16]22]25]28] Ἀτρυτώνη14]21]24]27]
IL.21.420 'For shame now, Atrytone, daughter of Zeus of the aegis.
IL.21.421 καὶ δ' αὖθ' ἡ κυνάμυια ἄγει [29βροτολοιγὸν Ἄρηα29]
IL.21.421 Here again is this dogfly leading murderous Ares
IL.21.422 [30δηΐου ἐκ πολέμοιο30] κατὰ κλόνον: ἀλλὰ μέτελθε.
IL.21.422 out of the fighting and through the confusion. Quick, go after her!'


IL.21.423 [31[32ὣς φάτ', Ἀθηναίη32] δὲ31] μετέσσυτο, [33[34χαῖρε δὲ θυμῷ,34]
IL.21.423 She spoke, and Athene swept in pursuit, heart full of gladness,
IL.21.424 καί33] ῥ' ἐπιεισαμένη πρὸς στήθεα [35χειρὶ παχείῃ35]
IL.21.424 and caught up with her and drove a blow at her breasts with her ponderous
IL.21.425 ἤλασε: [36[37[38τῆς δ' αὐτοῦ [39[40λύτο γούνατα38]40] καὶ [41φίλον ἦτορ.37]39]41]
IL.21.425 hand, so that her knees went slack and the heart inside her.
IL.21.426 τὼ36] μὲν ἄρ' ἄμφω [42[43κεῖντο [44ἐπὶ [45[46χθονὶ43] πουλυβοτείρῃ,42]44]46]
IL.21.426 Those two both lay sprawled on the generous earth. But Athene
IL.21.427 ἣ δ'45] ἄρ' [47[48ἐπευχομένη [49[50ἔπεα πτερόεντ'48]50] ἀγόρευε:47]49]
IL.21.427 stood above them and spoke to them in the winged words of triumph:
τοιοῦτοι νῦν [51[52[53πάντες ὅσοι53] Τρώεσσιν52] ἀρωγοὶ51]
IL.21.428 'Now may all who bring their aid to the Trojans be in
IL.21.429 εἶεν, ὅτ' Ἀργείοισι μαχοίατο θωρηκτῇσιν,
IL.21.429 such case as these, when they do battle with the armoured Argives,
IL.21.430 ὧδέ τε θαρσαλέοι καὶ τλήμονες, ὡς Ἀφροδίτη
IL.21.430 as daring and as unfortunate, as now Aphrodite
IL.21.431 [54ἦλθεν Ἄρῃ54] ἐπίκουρος [55ἐμῷ μένει ἀντιόωσα:55]
IL.21.431 came companion in arms to Ares, and faced my fury.
IL.21.432 τώ κεν δὴ πάλαι ἄμμες [56ἐπαυσάμεθα πτολέμοιο56]
IL.21.432 So we should long ago have rested after our fighting
IL.21.433 [57Ἰλίου ἐκπέρσαντες57] [58ἐϋκτίμενον πτολίεθρον.58]
IL.21.433 once having utterly stormed the strong-founded city of Ilion.'
ἀλλὰ [8χολωσαμένη Διὸς8] [9αἰδοίη παράκοιτις9]
IL.21.479 to her; but the august consort of Zeus, full of anger,
IL.21.480 νείκεσεν ἰοχέαιραν [10ὀνειδείοις ἐπέεσσι:10]
IL.21.480 scolded the lady of showering arrows in words of revilement:
IL.21.481 πῶς δὲ σὺ νῦν μέμονας [11κύον ἀδδεὲς11] ἀντί' ἐμεῖο
IL.21.481 'How have you had the daring, you shameless hussy, to stand up
IL.21.482 [12στήσεσθαι; χαλεπή12] τοι ἐγὼ μένος ἀντιφέρεσθαι
IL.21.482 and face me? It will be hard for you to match your strength with mine
IL.21.483 τοξοφόρῳ [13περ ἐούσῃ, ἐπεὶ σὲ13] λέοντα γυναιξὶ
IL.21.483 even if you wear a bow, since Zeus has made you a lion
IL.21.484 [14Ζεὺς θῆκεν,14] καὶ ἔδωκε κατακτάμεν ἥν κ' ἐθέλῃσθα.
IL.21.484 among women, and given you leave to kill any at your pleasure.
IL.21.485 ἤτοι βέλτερόν ἐστι κατ' [15οὔρεα [16θῆρας ἐναίρειν15]16]
IL.21.485 Better for you to hunt down the ravening beasts in the mountains
IL.21.486 ἀγροτέρας τ' ἐλάφους ἢ κρείσσοσιν [17ἶφι μάχεσθαι.17]
IL.21.486 and deer of the wilds, than try to fight in strength with your betters.
IL.21.487 εἰ δ' ἐθέλεις πολέμοιο [18δαήμεναι, [19[20[21ὄφρ' [22ἐῢ εἰδῇς18]21]22]
IL.21.487 But if you would learn what fighting is, come on. You will find out
[10ὅσσον7] φερτέρη [11εἴμ',6]10] ὅτι μοι μένος ἀντιφερίζεις.11]
IL.21.488 how much stronger I am when you try to match strength against me.'


IL.21.489 [12ἦ ῥα, καὶ ἀμφοτέρας12] [13ἐπὶ καρπῷ χεῖρας13] ἔμαρπτε
IL.21.489 She spoke, and caught both of her arms at the wrists in her left hand
IL.21.490 [14[15σκαιῇ, δεξιτερῇ [16δ'15] ἄρ'14] ἀπ' ὤμων16] αἴνυτο τόξα,
IL.21.490 and with her right hand stripped away the bow from her shoulders,
IL.21.491 αὐτοῖσιν δ' ἄρ' ἔθεινε παρ' οὔατα μειδιόωσα
IL.21.491 then with her own bow, smiling, boxed her ears as Artemis
IL.21.492 ἐντροπαλιζομένην: ταχέες δ' ἔκπιπτον ὀϊστοί.
IL.21.492 tried to twist away, and the flying arrows were scattered.
IL.21.493 δακρυόεσσα δ' ὕπαιθα θεὰ φύγεν ὥς τε πέλεια,
IL.21.493 She got under and free and fled in tears, as a pigeon
IL.21.494 [17ἥ ῥά θ' ὑπ'17] ἴρηκος κοίλην εἰσέπτατο πέτρην
IL.21.494 in flight from a hawk wings her way into some rock-hollow
IL.21.495 χηραμόν: [18οὐδ' ἄρα τῇ γε18] ἁλώμεναι αἴσιμον ἦεν:
IL.21.495 and a cave, since it was not destiny for the hawk to catch her.
ὣς ἣ δακρυόεσσα φύγεν, λίπε δ' αὐτόθι τόξα.
IL.21.496 So she left her archery on the ground, and fled weeping.
edit: missed some quotes.
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Damien
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Postby Damien » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:36 pm

No, its pretty typical actually. Its strange for your preconceived ideas about Greek myth, but not for the real thing. Indeed, since it is a QUOTE FROM THE ILLIAD its hard to see how it could be!
Now now, let's be fair: The Iliad (one L, by the way) is actually rather non-traditional in terms of how one reads the Greek myths. Even the Odyssey is not "written" in the same style. Even most people intimately familiar with the Iliad will tell you that it isn't exactly the same as all the other myths floating around here and there.
But oral transmission is no less reliable than written if the proper techniques are used, and it was written down by the classical period, which is what most people think of when they say ancient Greece.
No argument here. I'm only pointing out what I did for posterity's sake. Most people tend to think the Iliad we have today represents the exact words of Homer, when in fact we have no idea on that fact.
Two or three languages? Why? we are perfectly capable of translating it from the original Greek.
You're mistaken here. Most of the 'original Greek' we have is actually not the -original- Greek. The language itself has undergone changes over the millenia. Likewise, many translations of the Iliad are translated into one's native language from any number of other languages. The Greek is used where possible, but sometimes it is not. Say you're German. Your German edition of the Iliad might have been translated from an English version, which was translated from both Latin and Greek texts. The Latin texts are actually easier to get, and you may be surprised to know that a large amount of published Iliad translations were based on the Latin translation of the Greek.

Not that it's a big deal. Most translators are quite careful about not altering the intent of the text even when the translation becomes difficult.

And there are both prose and poetic translations, because translating the poetic forms is actually quite difficult. Its very hard to get a translation that is both accurate, and scans. If you want a line by line translation, I've found one here:
Appreciated, but I already have a few copies of the Iliad, prose, poetic, and purely line-by-line, no changes translations. My perosnal favourite is the Robert Fagles translation - which is in poetic form.

It's just my personal opinion, but I don't think any non-poetic version of the Iliad can be called even close to a direct translation. The story was a poem, it was spoken as one and written down as one. If you alter that, you're not directly translating the original text anymore. Of course, prose versions have their charm - many prose translators drop the now-irrelevant, consistent repeating of large blocks of text.

That depends who calls it one.


But it doesn't. See, that's where you are going astray here. You seem to think that if Howard said something - anything - that he intends for it to be taken literally as gospel. What you are not allowing for, and what is very important, especially in horror and pulp, is context.

Don't just focus on what the author is saying exactly, but focus on why he is saying it, and what he hopes to achieve. There is a certain mood he is evoking. A good writer speaks, even in narrative, as a member of the world he is writing in, not as an outsider. Robert Howard's narrative take place inside the world, rather than from outside the glass bubble containing it.

Like I said before, just because Robert Howard said, in narrative, that something was a god does not mean he meant for you to take it literally. Rather, he's trying to convey to you that this is what humans in Hyboria are calling a god. But saying that is not nearly as enjoyable to read. It's too 'explainy' - if you will. It ruins the flow of the narrative to second-guess and over-explain yourself.

"This was the god of the Frozen North" or "The rites of the strange god were bloody and sinister."

These statements are emphatically NOT empirical, as your interpretation of Howard's writing style would have us believe. Howard's style is entirely accurate - that IS a strange god. That doesn't mean it's actually a god, though. Imagine you are talking about Greek mythology. Do you refrain from calling Zeus a god, simply because you do not believe in his real divinity?

Every time I talk religion with a friend, one of us inevitably says "Humans have certainly found themselves strange Gods." We are narrating and observing, as Howard was in his own narrative. Our observations should NOT be taken to mean we actually believe in the divinity of humanity's various gods. What Howard was doing was no different. He was observing from a Hyborian perspective - not making absolute statements as the 'world creator.'


Certainly, it's up to interpretation, but I think it's overly stifling to disallow Howard from using an incredibly common narrative style by assuming everything he says in the narrative represents his OWN view.
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The King
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:48 pm

kintire wrote:Why the comparison of me with excrement?
With wasps actually. Perhaps I wasn't coherent enough? Really, what you feel like is up to you.

But you were right on one point: you are now totally off topic, leaving the field to mere personal attacks, contestations and more fabricated ideas of what I might think.

First we wrote of Hyborian gods, then had an argumentation about the definition of goddom (where you began to tell I was off-topic) and then this meaningless I'm-right-so-you're-wrong.

If you're just looking at some opponent volunteer in the army. You'll have your fill of battlefields and self-satisfaction and will be able to shout out your truth after each MG's burst... until you receive someone else's truth.

With this, I leave you with krushnak the mad and kyorou the annoying (he who refused to be called the great mathematician). With some luck both will begin to worship you as a god, kintire, would-be-sayer-of-other's-truth (just have faith in kyorou's most laughable definition of god).

So that you may keep it in mind, here is (again!) your credo:
What I meant is : in the Hyborian age, the commonly accepted definition of a god is X. Thus the Hyborian definition of a god is X.
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kintire
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Postby kintire » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:44 pm

The Iliad (one L, by the way) is actually rather non-traditional in terms of how one reads the Greek myths. Even the Odyssey is not "written" in the same style. Even most people intimately familiar with the Iliad will tell you that it isn't exactly the same as all the other myths floating around here and there.
Of course, its heroic fiction not a religious text. Still, given its popularity in antiquity, its hard to say it isn't mainstream. And the other myths don't portray the gods as ehtereal figures that communicate with mortals only through mental contact either.
You're mistaken here. Most of the 'original Greek' we have is actually not the -original- Greek. The language itself has undergone changes over the millenia
Of course it has, which is why Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are two completely different subjects. Of course we don't (as far as I know) have any Greek texts going back to 700 BC but we have plenty from the classical period, and we've translated enough of the late Mycenean Greek to know that the changes weren't that profound.
It's just my personal opinion, but I don't think any non-poetic version of the Iliad can be called even close to a direct translation. The story was a poem, it was spoken as one and written down as one. If you alter that, you're not directly translating the original text anymore.
Well, this is a huge debate for any translation. However, I would point out that if you are trying to make the result of your translation a poem in order to make it work, never mind work in the same style as the original, you have to do as much or more alterations as the prose trnaslator does. My solution? use both.
But it doesn't. See, that's where you are going astray here. You seem to think that if Howard said something - anything - that he intends for it to be taken literally as gospel. What you are not allowing for, and what is very important, especially in horror and pulp, is context.
Actually, I'm familiar with the need for context, and I am using it here.
Like I said before, just because Robert Howard said, in narrative, that something was a god does not mean he meant for you to take it literally. Rather, he's trying to convey to you that this is what humans in Hyboria are calling a god.
Now it's you who are not allowing for context. When an author is using descriptive text, then it is safe to assume that what he is describing exists, unless he signals in the context that he is using imagery. You confidently say that Howard "is trying to convey that this is what Humans in hyboria are calling a god" but the context says otherwise. You are importing your own preconceptions into the text, not deriving conclusions from it. Howard was not a big user of metaphor. One of the attractions of his style is that it is very immediate. The pace is fast, the descriptions vivid and immediate. He doesn't use indirection much.

Not only that, you have to work with Howards assumptions. This was not a man who was into the sort of metaphysical speculations about the truth behind reality that Lovecraft gave us in his Silver Key series. Howards stories are physical and immdiate, and so are his Gods:
"I die as men die;" he muttered. "Fool, to assume the attributes of mankind, even though it was to aid the people who deify me. The gods are immortal, but flesh can perish, even when it clothes a god. Haste and bring a sprig of the magic plant-even holly-and lay it on my bosom. Aye, though it be no larger than a dagger point, it will free me from this fleshy prison I put on when I came to war with men with their own weapons. And I will shake off this flesh and stalk once more among the thundering clouds. Woe, then, to all men who bend not the knee to me! Haste; I will await your coming."

His lion-like head fell back, and feeling shudderingly under his corselet, I could distinguish no heartbeat. He was dead, as men die, but I knew that locked in that semblance of a human body, there but slumbered the spirit of a fiend of the frost and darkness.

Aye, I knew him: Odin, the Grey Man, the One-eyed, the god of the North who had taken the form of a warrior to fight for his people. Assuming the form of a human, he was subject to many of the limitations of humanity. All men knew this of the gods, who often walked the earth in the guise of men. Odin, clothed in human semblance, could he wounded by certain weapons, and even slain, but a touch of the mysterious holly, would rouse him in grisly resurrection. This task he had set me, not knowing me for an enemy; in human form he could only use human faculties, and these had been impaired by onstriding death.
Odin, killed in action at the battle of Clontarf. Not Conan, of course, but still Howard (The Cairn on the Headland).

But you were right on one point: you are now totally off topic, leaving the field to mere personal attacks, contestations and more fabricated ideas of what I might think.
Mere personal attacks? The personal attacks in this thread have come from you.
First we wrote of Hyborian gods, then had an argumentation about the definition of goddom (where you began to tell I was off-topic) and then this meaningless I'm-right-so-you're-wrong.

If you're just looking at some opponent volunteer in the army. You'll have your fill of battlefields and self-satisfaction and will be able to shout out your truth after each MG's burst... until you receive someone else's truth.

With this, I leave you with krushnak the mad and kyorou the annoying (he who refused to be called the great mathematician). With some luck both will begin to worship you as a god, kintire, would-be-sayer-of-other's-truth (just have faith in kyorou's most laughable definition of god).
Translation: I have no argument left to refute you except ad hominem, and you've busted that one. I will now shout "I am so right!" throw my toys out of the pram and retire.
So that you may keep it in mind, here is (again!) your credo: Quote:
What I meant is : in the Hyborian age, the commonly accepted definition of a god is X. Thus the Hyborian definition of a god is X.
Ironically, I don't actually agree with this entirely. The important thing is Howard's definition, not the Hyborians'. We have a couple of examples of false deities.
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The King
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:41 pm

kintire wrote:Mere personal attacks? The personal attacks in this thread have come from you.
So you don't even understand what you and your new friends write? And then I should argument on this basis?
Translation: I have no argument left to refute you except ad hominem, and you've busted that one. I will now shout "I am so right!" throw my toys out of the pram and retire.
Answer: Then why are you still shooting on the pram instead of stealing the toys you wanted? Thus you had murder in mind rather than mere theft?
This is a clear evidence you prefer to fight versus unarmed (remember, I thrown out my toys) and shoot in the back (I retired). I see you aren't misled and that you truly like these heaps we were talking about. Enjoy your meal then!
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Postby Kyorou » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:29 pm

The King wrote:Considering your status I could even wonder whether you didn't come there especially to bother me or other people

I do not welcome you indeed.
Let's stop here before I start to hate you, OK ?

I regret anything I might have said that could have been understood as a personal attack. I respect you as a person and didn't came here to bother you or anyone.

Let's bury the battleaxe.
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Postby tarkhan bey » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:59 pm

I started following this particular thread with some interest but have to admit that I got a little lost somewhere along the way. I dont really have anything to add regarding the reality of gods and the existence of greater and lesser realities.
What I want to say is that a certain party should really refrain from insulting fellow posters. We don't all agree about all things but we all share a passion for the writings of Howard.Name calling doesn't win you any friends. :(
Just my tuppence worth.
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:19 pm

Kyorou wrote:Let's stop here before I start to hate you, OK ?

I regret anything I might have said that could have been understood as a personal attack. I respect you as a person and didn't came here to bother you or anyone.

Let's bury the battleaxe.
I wasn't even armed and have thus nothing to bury.
I accept your words though I will perhaps disappoint you in that I really don't care whether you love or hate me.
An American-style kitchen is a kitchen in the living room.
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My neighbours combine both styles.
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Postby The King » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:48 pm

tarkhan bey wrote:I started following this particular thread with some interest but have to admit that I got a little lost somewhere along the way. I dont really have anything to add regarding the reality of gods and the existence of greater and lesser realities.
What I want to say is that a certain party should really refrain from insulting fellow posters. We don't all agree about all things but we all share a passion for the writings of Howard.Name calling doesn't win you any friends. :(
So here comes another one-sided mind telling with his good voice that one poster is the devil while the other fellow posters are the good angels of mankind. Did you really need to interfere and support someone whereas you even explain you didn't read everythin?
I suppose I should be aimed at when you refer to a "certain party" but even with your advice I will not tolerate any insult, be it through name-calling or pseudo-rhetorical argumentation, without due and prompt retaliation, whatever the odds. But please don't come whining afterwards because you have to bear the results.

Then concerning the alleguated friendship with people I don't know (and don't want to know anymore) just because we would share a same passion is non sense. The militaries, for example, share the same passion of war and weapons. Do they love themselves?

I even heard that in some (many?) countries there were once / there is / and perhaps there will be some slight discrepancies though the people apparently shared the same passion of God and the same language (kintire are you still there?). Indeed these people didn't share the same ideas. Just as plain and simple. This has nothing to do with friendship.
An American-style kitchen is a kitchen in the living room.
A French-style toilet has toilet in the living room.
My neighbours combine both styles.
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:16 pm

[MODERATOR VOICE]

I've had complaints about the behaviour of some posters this thread so can we all simmer down and play nice or I'll take further action.

LBH
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Postby Nyarlathotep » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:04 pm

As the originator of this thread, I would kindly ask the moderator gods to either close it / delete it / bury it as it has strayed far away from the initial intentions of the discussion.

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