Ragged Edge PC Choices

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
El Cid
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Postby El Cid » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:53 pm

R Arceneaux wrote:
<SNIP>

If they do then they get the benefits GM has no option.

If they do not then they do not get the beneifts player should not whine.

Personal opinion becomes irrelevant when the the core rules state a specific skill or ability and the criteria for said skill or ability.

As to the lucky Dice, please do feel free not to use the Lucky dice principle if you personally do not wish to. I do because there is no rule that says I cannot. I am an amateur rules lawyer. I roll my dice for all to see, quite openly, even rolling in plane sight on the table for everyone to observe that I did not lie when I stated what the die results are. Everyone is free to pick up and examine my dice to check for any loading or shaving. But if it makes you feel better I do on the very rare occasion role a critical failure--bad hair day. AND just to make sure to cover my heini on this event, IF IT IS AVAILABLE, I take what I call the 'better lucky than good' ability that allows me to reroll once per game session a roll / manditory taking the 2nd roll at the very earliest opportunity. What are the odds of rolling two 1s in a row even on cursed dice. Pretty long

<SNIP>
I usually have my players build their PCs using 36 points.

By the way, my die rolls suck.

I once rolled a PC with 17 attribute points. I forget the exact numbers but that's like 11,11,11,11,11 and a 10. Of course we used the best 3 of 4 dice rolled. I can usually get one attribute around 5.

As for rolling two D20 and getting a 1 on each, once my GM said, "There's no way you could possibly fail in that attempt." pause. "Go ahead and roll two D20s. If yo roll a 1 on both, you fail."

I rolled two D20s and got two 1s.

Go figure.

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Re: Three replies...

Postby lastbesthope » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:14 pm

R Arceneaux wrote: First, the last guy...

Your post assumes that my character will want to warn those in his party. This assumtpion could get get your character killed if the person playing the telepath is a loyal Zelot of Psy Corps and a very high telepath.

I point out to you the episode "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" in which the Psy Cop trainee under the tutilage of a trained respected Psy Cop deliberately murdered a human non telepath by spacing him while he was drugged.

OR how Lyta deliberately turned on Bab 5 command at the end and even threatened to kill Gerabaldi if he misused her funds which he was holding for safe keeping--looked at a light bulb and telepathly broke it from across the room and smiled.

OR how that blond telepath who was a Psy Corps mole was willing to squeel on the Bab 5 crew even if it meant they would be killed.

OR Lytas story while she and the doctor were on Mars and Lyta pointed put that horror dream seed in the mind of the serial killer of telepaths to torture him for the rest of his life.

OR even alien telepaths--when Vir was mentally forcefully probed by a telepath from Centari Prime to pull out secretes he whould not willingly state. See the episode "Rock and a Hard Place"

Telepaths are basicly cold blooded people many of whome will kill human non telepaths because they are simply expendable.

Having stated this as historical background, my character will be a Psy Corps traind high level telepath whose job is to scout for rogue telepaths under the guise of beautyful female liason between Psy Corps and Earth Forces whever she is assigned. Her real job will be quite different in reality. She will have absolutely nothing against any human non telepath if it gets her task acomplished--just as the telepaths on the Bab 5 Television Series.

So I just might NOT want to warn the party members at all. Rather I just might want to eliminate them one by one by simply doing absolutely nothing at all.
First off it's Last guy SIR to you ... :lol:

Second, I'd just assumed that the teep and other PCs would be working as a team, I see now how that dioesn't suit your game.

But remember, there is no need for all teeps to be the way you suggest. Sure the Corps will try to indoctrinate it's members, but it won;t work on all of them. I mean look at what Talia's control personality let the 'fake' personality get away with.
That's a special case, but look at Mathieson in Crusade, in his flashback to his limited involvement in the teep war we see that he still has free will enough to act against the Corps, even if only in a small way.

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Postby R Arceneaux » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:59 pm

OK Last guy Mr Sir....

I can live with that.

For Reference:

"But remember, there is no need for all teeps to be the way you suggest. Sure the Corps will try to indoctrinate it's members, but it won;t work on all of them. I mean look at what Talia's control personality let the 'fake' personality get away with.
That's a special case, but look at Mathieson in Crusade, in his flashback to his limited involvement in the teep war we see that he still has free will enough to act against the Corps, even if only in a small way. "

Well first off, they do not indroctinate their members, they brain wash them. Remember telepaths who break from PC and run are called "Rogue". Rogue in hunted down like mad dogs, captured and brought back for re-education--aka 'showing them the error of their ways'. The PC did not tolerate individualism or independant thought. ALSO in another episode of the Bab 5 Series Bestor did state that the PC selected the "Mates" for their members so as to have the mew crop of teeps be "More Powerful". Bestor did not choose his official wife, He was told that she would be his wife.

As to Talia, you are reading her personaliy completele backwards. It was the personna she portreyed in public that was the fake. The deep core was her "TRUE" personality. Example, say my teeps personality I chose to be cold blooded and ruthless towards non telepaths. Obviously this intent should be hidden least any thing I try will be coomed to fail before it starts. Hence 'Mary Poppins" sugar fake face will get me my need, then I would kill them all in cold blood.

As to Crusade that was in the period AFTER the telepath war. AND WHILE YOU MENTIONED IT...did not in Crusade did the telepath have to go thru a yearly monthly deep scan by a PC Memory Inspector. And was that inspector NOT a cold blooded wastard. I hope you never actually believe that just because one teep has a heart of gold does not nean that he was the norm. Or that that cold blooded annual monitor was the exception.

IF you look at the Bab 5 series from beginning to end and read the Telepath Triology books you will come to realize that to properly play a telepath you must by the very nature of training and out of completely unavoidable true arrogance of superiority run a teep as a smileing cold blooded snake that portreys and passes themselves off as "One Of The Gang".

BUT knowing that a person plays a teep as a deep down cold blooded snake that will kill you if it suites the sutuation does NOT MEAN that mundanes cannot USE them as useful members having special ability. All they have to do is to just watch out for the metamorphasis.

History of Telepaths on Bab 5....

Bestor of course--evil wastard that I would love to portrey in a campagne.

Talia--ticking time bomb lieing thru her goodie goodie 2 shoes innocence for purposes of finding out information that ALMOST got bab 5 command executed.

Lyta--hot lookin red headed telepath of extraordinary powers after vorlon enhancement and alteration...In the end she threatened to kill anyonw who did not conform to HER. PC would have been proud.

Alien Telepaths, MORE than once did they perform deep scans against the will of other aliens on the station. More than once did they openly display the Pure POWER game.

The ONLY calm telepath was the guy on Crusade. AND it is completely uncertain, unclear and pure speculation that he would have remainded pure hearted. The series "Ended" after only 12 or so episides. In order to determine IF he would have remained pure we would have had to have at least 3 complete seasons. Remember it took at least 3 seasons for Lyta to turn into raging hormonial female telepath. Bestor was born bad adz. IF you read the Telepaths books,IF I remeber coorrectly, you will find that his parents were extremely high level telepaths themselves. Hence your characterization of the guy on Crusade is without merit due to a lack of script development/character development in the series.

To play a telepath true and right you cannot deviate from the base nature of the common telepath--arrogant, superior, aloof, cold blooded and sometimes deliberate killer of mundanes if orderded to do so or if it is common procedure to do so--see Corps is Mother, Corps is Father episode where Psy Cop Trainee deliberately murdedr a human non telepath by spacing them as a part of their psy cops training. YES Psy Cops are stone cold killers. OR that Byron was Psy Cop Trainee , Omega Squad, and was ordered to deliberately murder hundreds of non telepaths by destroying their transport ship--the penalty for transporting rogue telepaths. And remember that BYRON was murdered on Bab 5 for NOT totin the party line.

To play a telepath you have to posess special qualities, one of which is to be extremely cold blooded (if required). Its a difficult thing to do but I have done it in the past. The other players hated my guts of course but then again I got a ton of Xperience points and the GM Loved it.

Sometimes ya just have to stab a fellow character in the back to break them out of a stupor.

Remember in RPG one is supposed to "Play the Characer" not themselves. Hard to do sometimes but if you master the ability of completely setting aside ones own personalty your character will take on a "Life" of its own.

Sorry for the long post....



Later

R Arceneaux.
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Postby Mongoose Gar » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:48 pm

Er...Remember Byron?
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Postby lastbesthope » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:42 pm

Many good points R Arcaneux, but no form of brainwwashing is perfect.

As for Talia, both personalities could have been created. And no matter which was real, they still et the 'public' one do some fairly anti Corps stuff.

My point about Mathieson in Crusade was referencing his memory/flashback to before Crusade during the Teep war. Also, the inspector pretty much was a cold hearted ***tard. As for not believing they're all good just because one is, equally you shouldn't believe they're all bad because one is.

And yes, many (but not all) of the teeps portrayed in the BAbylon 5 universe have been relatively cold, superior beings. but not all, and much of that can be placed at the door of the demands of plot, as the Corps was seen as a monstrosity. Look at Harriman Gray, he did the right thing in the end.

And remember the main thing. the B5 RPG allows to play 'offscreen', Given that the Corps pretty much picks and chooses who finds out what about it's agendas, and who does what, don't you think they'd keep any nice well adjusted telepaths who would be fair to everyone, out of the important power gaining agendas. Use them for PR and stuff.

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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:01 am

Someone mentioned Byron....

Least we all forget Byron (even though as powerful as he was) was for all practical intents and purposes: A rogue telepath (not the norm)/the norm of telepaths was that of conformity to the PC, its ideals and principles/ who was hunted down, cornered on Bab 5 when he tried to gather other rogues to relocate to a distant home world, encircled by PC Cops/bloodhound units and the in the end the entire Bab 5 security force and murdered for not conforming. Byron was the freak of the telepath world not the rule.

All to my point Telepathy involves total commitment to the PC/its goals and principles unless you want to play a rogue telepath subject to being hunted down like a dog by PC cops.

Remember guys that to play a character contrary to the very nature of the character, regardless of reason, is to belittle the character and its nature.

There was only ONE telepath in the TV series that was not self centered. And only one. And that was purely because she never had any kind of PC training at all. She was a blip, wild, uncotroled telepath. Remember the episode where a young female blip was found on the station. Bestor tried to woo her over to PC training but in the end she went into the rangers or some related Mimbari organization. I will have to watch that episode again.

NOW IF anyone wants to play a completely untrained blip telepath with absolutely no formal training in the use of telepathy be my guest by all means. HOWEVER you may find that the GM will deny you many abilities due to a lack of formal PC training. Remember certain skills by their very nature require formal teep training to use them.


The good part about RPG is that playing the big bad evil man can be so much fun. You get to do in a game setting stuff that you would not do in real life.

Also if you are playing a PC registered telepath the book, if I remember correctly, does state that as a telepath/human you must put all your influence points into the Corps. I must interpret this to mean that if one is to be a registered telepath one must buy into the PC completely with virtual total commitment.
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Postby thedarkelf007 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:11 am

hmmm I believe we were discussing Telepaths and The Ragged Edge...

Now while I did have telepaths in my game, I have convinced them to change classes and have dropped Telepath from the list of acceptible character concepts.

This was done by asking if they wanted the game to restart, remove telepaths or risk a Total Party Kill at the start of the next session...

They took the remove Telepath class option. Not that they used the abilites much. Two of them have yet to roll a single dice relating to their telepath abilties...

Anyway they will be on Beta 9 soon, and hopefully back on track...
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Postby Polaris » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:12 am

RA,

1. Just because most of the Telepath stars were bastards doesn't mean that all Telepaths had to be. More to the point, there is no reason PC telepaths have to be total bastards.

2. You are assuming that all Teeps will be human. Admittedly you are assuming this implicitly, but you are making that assumption, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Minbari Teeps (which to my knowledge are almost exclusively Religious Cast) would feel a moral obligation to warn his or her team-mates assuming that they were 'following the correct path' which in most cases is a given. Likewise, Centauri or Teeps from other races could be just as loyal or disloyal as anyone else.

3. If you are using loaded dice to roll characters or do any rolling in the game at all THEN YOU ARE CHEATING and I would deal with you accordingly (toss out of my game, bruises optional). The entire engine of the game depends on stochastically independant dice, and the knowing use of flawed dice is go gain an unfair advantage no matter what the source of the flaw.

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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:21 am

Re 007.

Hmmm you mean they dont have Psy Cops on the fringes of space chasing rogue telepaths and such.

Someone should tell that to Bestor and his fellow co-workers.
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Postby Giavonn » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:00 am

Mongoose Gar wrote:Er...Remember Byron?
Or from the first season, does anyone remember Harriman Grey? Can you really think of a less arrogant guy?

There are as many ways to play Teeps as there are persons. And yes, I watched both series from start to finish. In first run. And in reruns. And yes, read the Bester trilogy, too.

My namesake in the Ragged Edge campaign finally lost his "innocence" after leaving Immolan-- because he met a lovely Centaura who didn't know he was a teep, and had frankly no opinion of him at all. She was grateful for being rescued and was a bit of a party animal. Up until then, he'd had a real distaste for ever being intimate with anyone, because their opinion of him was such a buzzkiller. Prior to that, he'd been taking Miss Lockwood out for dinner from time to time, because he enjoyed how much she enjoyed a nice dinner-- and that was as intimate as he could stand to be. He'd been even considering getting a dose of Sleepers just so he could stand intimate contact.

And to reiterate, remember, folks: all that Danger Sense does is allow the teep to act in the Surprise Round. It has no. other. game effect. whatsoever.
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Postby Giavonn » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:19 am

R Arceneaux wrote:Someone mentioned Byron....

Least we all forget Byron (even though as powerful as he was) was for all practical intents and purposes: A rogue telepath (not the norm)/the norm of telepaths was that of conformity to the PC, its ideals and principles/ who was hunted down, cornered on Bab 5 when he tried to gather other rogues to relocate to a distant home world, encircled by PC Cops/bloodhound units and the in the end the entire Bab 5 security force and murdered for not conforming. Byron was the freak of the telepath world not the rule.
You know, Byron seemed to have a hell of a lot of allies... that entire underground, for example.
All to my point Telepathy involves total commitment to the PC/its goals and principles unless you want to play a rogue telepath subject to being hunted down like a dog by PC cops.
Note that you've completely ignored Teeps of other races. B5 is not a completely human universe. Not by a long shot. And even for humans, it's a big universe. Get born on a colony world and don't mess with people, and you might just slip below the radar, especially if you meet up with the undergrounders and don't publiciize your talents.
Remember guys that to play a character contrary to the very nature of the character, regardless of reason, is to belittle the character and its nature.

There was only ONE telepath in the TV series that was not self centered. And only one.
Untrue. Harriman Grey was a remarkably undastardly man.
I'd say you really don't seem to understand this "essence of telepath" quite as well as you might think.
A Psi-Cop will be utterly devoted to the Corps. A commercial telepath, far less so.
Also if you are playing a PC registered telepath the book, if I remember correctly, does state that as a telepath/human you must put all your influence points into the Corps. I must interpret this to mean that if one is to be a registered telepath one must buy into the PC completely with virtual total commitment.
You do not remember correctly.
Your initial Influence goes into Corps if you are human and if you are registered with Psi Corps. And even if both of these are true, only half of your later influence increases due to level increase go to Psi Corps. This represents a strong tie, but by no means a total commitment. And it ignores, of course, the many and significant Influence awards given while going through the campaign. Indeed, the two highest Influences my namesake currently has (+15 ASI and +16 Gaim) came largely through story awards.
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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:04 am

Re G man....

Who the heck is this tall mysterious stranger you site.

But that is not my main point of reference....

You cherry picked an exception and not the overwealming rule to prove your point. Exceptions do not prove points.

Could you please site hnmmmm say a several cases /2 or three of the vast vast majority of SC Registered teeps to prove your points.

I also site to you that you should read the Psy Corps Trilology series to acquire a more rounded perspective of teeps in general and then tie that to the TV Series itself.
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Postby Giavonn » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:12 pm

R Arceneaux wrote:Re G man....

Who the heck is this tall mysterious stranger you site.


Harriman Grey, if that's who you mean, was hardly tall, standing only 5' 7 3/4". He appears in the first season episode "Eyes." He longed to be a space pilot, but had to join the Corps when his talent developed. His summation to the effect that "oh well, we each serve Earth in our own way," was the very antithesis of the attitude you want to prescribe.
But that is not my main point of reference....

You cherry picked an exception and not the overwealming rule to prove your point. Exceptions do not prove points.


Au contraire. A single solid counterexample can disprove a hypothesis. In fact, that's exactly how you disprove them.
Add Lyta Alexander to the list of non-arrogant teeps. Even after her transformation, her behavior in season five isn't self-centered, but rather teep-centered. And add every one of the season five blips, as well as the undergrounders in "A Race Through Dark Places," as well.
Could you please site hnmmmm say a several cases /2 or three of the vast vast majority of SC Registered teeps to prove your points.

I also site to you that you should read the Psy Corps Trilology series to acquire a more rounded perspective of teeps in general and then tie that to the TV Series itself.
Since you missed it, I'll repeat it-- I have read the Bester trilogy. You are still falling into the trap of believing that all player characters are human, that all human teeps are Psi Corps, and that all Psi Corps teeps have the same personality. Not one of those three beliefs is true.

You might also try wrestling with the last paragraph on page 51 of the B5 RPG rulebook, a discussion of Telepaths' interaction with other classes. I'm particularly interested in how you reconcile "a deep-rooted need to gain the respect and acceptance of others" with the stereotype you want to enforce on all telepath characters.
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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:06 pm

Re the G man..

Your first reply... One shot characters and how they act are hardly credible. That is called cherry picking by the way. And it carries zero weight in arguments and discussions.

BESIDES my character is hard core bloodhound in the guize of a laison officer. Being bad adz is her job. Yea she is female and pretty good looking at that.

Your second part of reply LYTA...

YOU ARE BEHIND ON YOUR EPISODES....

Lyta the last show looks at Gerabaldi who offers to take care of her money and invest it for her. She looks him strate in the eye and very cold bloodedly tells him that IF HE STEALS HER MONEY (looks at a light bulb on the wall across the room and smashes it into pieces) looking back smiles at him.

NOT TO MENTION that she refused to remove the mind block of Bestor from Gerabaldi UNTIL a future date--NOT the act of a good christian peson is it.

Not to mention the fact hat Lyta was forcefully thrown OFF the station as a treat to the inhabitants and the ONLY person who would go with her was Gkar. Who for some reason liked her balsey attitude toward the end.


Try to pick a better example next time.

Anything Lyta was in the beginning is completely irrelevant compared to what she ultumatey became.

Your reply part 3...

It does not make any difference what an individual teep thought. When a registred teep was told to do something they did it. Their personal feelings are irrelevant. They EVEN chose your mate for you. You do as you are told by the PC Leadership.

Failure makes you candidate for re-education
Running makes you rogue and a hunted dog aka Lita and others

Heck I cannot read the rest of your replies. OHHH WeLLLLL I noted the siteing of the core rule book you stated. I will read it tonight when I get home. However know that unsess that passage which you sited specificly states that a telepath MUST/be obligated to act in a certain fashion I will hold that a person can do any thing they want. Very Very specific wording is required for a rule to be a rule--you "Cannot" to this or you "MUST" do that. Suggestion does not mean anything other than mere suggestion. Meaning anything can be done.

But I will be fair and read the passage carefully world for word counting the Ts and dotted Is. No reading between the lines permitted. I will read specificy and exactly what it states.

Is there any other section that you would like me to read. Please feel free to site me the paragraph/page/ whatever in the Faith Manages Book aka the Core Rules Book.


I think what is confusing you is the philosophy of my playing style. You see I do not play anything RPG for fun. I am a Power Player not a "for fun of it" player. I play for the XP, the Level and the superiority of skills and abilities.
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Postby Polaris » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:20 pm

R Arceneaux,

Since when did all PC Telepaths have to be:

1. Human?

2. Members of Psi-Corps?

3. Slavishly devoted to Psi-Corps?

4. Selfish Jerks?

Near as I can tell none of this is ipso facto true for PC telepaths and Giavonn just gave at least one (and IMHO more) solid counter examples.

If you don't bother to address the counter-points, when why should we take your points seriously?

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Postby Shadow Queen » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:53 pm

Well i have someone wanting to play a Centuari Telepath witch is cool.
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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:04 pm

In order of question....

Since when did all PC Telepaths have to be:

1. Human?

Absolutely there are alien telepaths. Well all except the Narns--all of theirs got killed by the Shadows.

However the makers of the game did kind of screw over the alien telepath characters. The di roll to determine P rate does not take into account that and IF I remember correctly an alien telepath can go ABOVE P12. BUT to do so is almost impossible.

HAD the game makers allowed the roll of a bigger die or should I say different di for different races to determine P rate then it would be positively awsome to play a Centari Telepath Assassin for one of the houses that had a P rating of 18 thru 20 (perhaps higher/perhaps even approaching vorlon). A truly fantasticly great prestige class for telepaths of alien races.

Surely a vorlon should use a D20 to get their P rate and a mim hmmmm I would think 2 d12 halved

Makers of the rules think on this.



Heck I would love to play a vorlon ambassador posessing P rating approaching max vorlon ability. WOW!

2. Members of Psi-Corps?

It was in the PC Triology. It is Earth Dome LAW that all telepaths must be/manditory/be a registered member of PC. NO option allowed other than the forced use of sleepers (probably administered by PC reps) to supress telepathic skills under the law. You do remember how in the PC history of the novels (all the telepaths (as many as should be found) were hunted down and forced against their will to either Join PC or take sleepers under the force of law and even the TV series how it was one of the primary jobs of the Psy Cop was to find/hunt down/overcome and bring in rogue teeps to Psy Corps central for re education dont you.

You do remember how Ivanava's mother was a telepath forced against her will to submit to the taking of sleepers. Sleepers which by the way made her depressed to the point where she committed suicide. I guess she should have joined PC.

And someone can fill in the blanks but did not the other races have their own manditory legal system that reigned in telepaths just as the PC did. Perhaps if you check the books on the various alien races.

3. Slavishly devoted to Psi-Corps?

See above reply relating to the ONLY two LEGAL options available to telepaths on Earth: join PC or take sleepers

Lets see, hmmm they had better tow the party line in public. Or at least when PC law enforcement tells them to do something. For example say you are a commercial teep of say P 5 or so. Say a bloodhound of 9 or 10 (that could be my character of bloodhound / liason) and/or a Psy Cop asks if you knew any information concering a blip or a rogue. Do you think that my character /bloodound or any Psy Cop would even hesitate to do a deep scan to force against your will forcing you to tell them the information they sought? Heck the cop would probably drag both YOU an the blip in for complete reeducation and be rewarded by his superiors in Psy Cop Division for ferreted out a potential rogue/that would be you the defiant one of course.

So yea, at least in public, you had better tow the party line when PC Law enforcement is in town. As well as answer all their questions in complete honesty.

4. Selfish Jerks?

Every one I ever saw who stayed on TV as an active character in a TV Series (the one season losers and people who stay on the screen for only 5 min dont count) that lasted longer than 3 years did turn down right rude and or nasty in the end. EVEN my fav Lyta. I loved her black eye/I am froggin ticked off mad mode.
===============================================

Near as I can tell none of this is ipso facto true for PC telepaths and Giavonn just gave at least one (and IMHO more) solid counter examples.

If you don't bother to address the counter-points, when why should we take your points seriously?
==============================================
Once again being on TV for a total of 5 min for ONE episode does NOT NOT NOT make him a credible witness. It only makes him an irrelevant freak teep in my not so humble bloodhound/PC Liason teep rate of 10. Hey that rhymes.


Once again let me know of any core rules you wish me to read this evening in addition to the rule(s) you previously sited
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Postby lastbesthope » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:10 pm

R Arceneaux wrote: I also site to you that you should read the Psy Corps Trilology series to acquire a more rounded perspective of teeps in general and then tie that to the TV Series itself.
A more complete knowledge of how telepaths are portrayed in the B5 universe yes, but more rounded, no. How can we have a more rounded view of telepaths when we're saying they can have any personality you can imagine?

LBH
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R Arceneaux
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Postby R Arceneaux » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:10 pm

Re Shadow...


The Only prob with your plan is that IF I remember correctly while it is true that the Cent did allow more leaway on their teeps they did have to align with a Cent House.

I dont seem to remember where their teeps were allowed to be independants.

Perhaps someone could fill us in on the regulatory controls imposed on teeps by the various alien races.
Bester was right.
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Postby Polaris » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:05 pm

R Arceneaux wrote:In order of question....

Since when did all PC Telepaths have to be:

1. Human?

Absolutely there are alien telepaths. Well all except the Narns--all of theirs got killed by the Shadows.
Well, there you go. Your basic premise is shot out of the water right there.
However the makers of the game did kind of screw over the alien telepath characters. The di roll to determine P rate does not take into account that and IF I remember correctly an alien telepath can go ABOVE P12. BUT to do so is almost impossible.
Which rules are you reading? NO PC can have a rating above P12, even if you are human at least according to the core rules. Yes, the Vorlons can break that limit, but I rather suspect the Vorlons can break that limit with any race. As for special Psi-Corp tech, AFAIK other races can use supplemental rules to break the P12 barrier as well. I seem to recall in first edition, Minbari could (for one).
HAD the game makers allowed the roll of a bigger die or should I say different di for different races to determine P rate then it would be positively awsome to play a Centari Telepath Assassin for one of the houses that had a P rating of 18 thru 20 (perhaps higher/perhaps even approaching vorlon). A truly fantasticly great prestige class for telepaths of alien races.
Centauri Teeps are just as good as human ones rules as written, perhaps even better because of the Centauri racial bonus to Charisma.
Surely a vorlon should use a D20 to get their P rate and a mim hmmmm I would think 2 d12 halved
Last time I checked, Vorlons were not a PC race.
2. Members of Psi-Corps?

It was in the PC Triology. It is Earth Dome LAW that all telepaths must be/manditory/be a registered member of PC. NO option allowed other than the forced use of sleepers (probably administered by PC reps) to supress telepathic skills under the law. You do remember how in the PC history of the novels (all the telepaths (as many as should be found) were hunted down and forced against their will to either Join PC or take sleepers under the force of law and even the TV series how it was one of the primary jobs of the Psy Cop was to find/hunt down/overcome and bring in rogue teeps to Psy Corps central for re education dont you.

You do remember how Ivanava's mother was a telepath forced against her will to submit to the taking of sleepers. Sleepers which by the way made her depressed to the point where she committed suicide. I guess she should have joined PC.

And someone can fill in the blanks but did not the other races have their own manditory legal system that reigned in telepaths just as the PC did. Perhaps if you check the books on the various alien races.
And on various colony worlds, and certain in Alien Realms, Psi-Corp's reach and enforcement powers are extremely limited. There is at least one canon example of a potent human teep joining the Minbari religious cast, and Byron and Co were able to elude Psi-Corps for years.

Is it easy to be an outlaw Teep? No. Is it possible especially for a PC. Hell yes.
3. Slavishly devoted to Psi-Corps?

See above reply relating to the ONLY two LEGAL options available to telepaths on Earth: join PC or take sleepers

Lets see, hmmm they had better tow the party line in public. Or at least when PC law enforcement tells them to do something. For example say you are a commercial teep of say P 5 or so. Say a bloodhound of 9 or 10 (that could be my character of bloodhound / liason) and/or a Psy Cop asks if you knew any information concering a blip or a rogue. Do you think that my character /bloodound or any Psy Cop would even hesitate to do a deep scan to force against your will forcing you to tell them the information they sought? Heck the cop would probably drag both YOU an the blip in for complete reeducation and be rewarded by his superiors in Psy Cop Division for ferreted out a potential rogue/that would be you the defiant one of course.

So yea, at least in public, you had better tow the party line when PC Law enforcement is in town. As well as answer all their questions in complete honesty.
Giavonn has already countered this point with at least one SOLID counter-example of a Psi-Corp member who was not a selfish jerk. Point in fact, just because the series shows the ugly side of Psi-Corps does not mean (and generally should not mean) that it shows the ugly side to everyone or even to every human teep.
4. Selfish Jerks?

Every one I ever saw who stayed on TV as an active character in a TV Series (the one season losers and people who stay on the screen for only 5 min dont count) that lasted longer than 3 years did turn down right rude and or nasty in the end. EVEN my fav Lyta. I loved her black eye/I am froggin ticked off mad mode.
Lyta by this time was very probably metally shaky to unstable. Close contact with Vorlons along with what she went through with Byron tends to do that..... Lyta at the beginning of the series seems more than alright, and certainly the GAME does not mandate that human teeps must be jerks. In fact, I challenge you to find in the rules ANYWHERE that dictates how a PC must play a human Teep. Consider that a dare. If you can, I will withdraw this point. If you can't, then you should reconsider your entire position.
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Near as I can tell none of this is ipso facto true for PC telepaths and Giavonn just gave at least one (and IMHO more) solid counter examples.

If you don't bother to address the counter-points, when why should we take your points seriously?
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Once again being on TV for a total of 5 min for ONE episode does NOT NOT NOT make him a credible witness. It only makes him an irrelevant freak teep in my not so humble bloodhound/PC Liason teep rate of 10. Hey that rhymes.
You don't get to dodge the point. Giavonn provided a solid counter-example. You might want to re-examine some of your own assumptions about PC Teeps.
Once again let me know of any core rules you wish me to read this evening in addition to the rule(s) you previously sited
Sure. Try these:

1. Find me ANYWHERE in the core rules (B5 main book) where aliens have a lower potential P-Rating than humans. For that matter, please find ANY core rule that mechanically distinquishes between human and alien teeps other than the fact that human teeps have influence buy restrictions. If you can't, then you have to admit that alien Teeps are just as playable as human ones.

2. Find my ANYWHERE in the core rules that dictacts how a human Teep must be played even said human is a member of Psi-Corps.

Let's start with those two.

-Polaris

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