Are the Minbari as bad as the Dilgar?

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
User avatar
Greg Smith
Warlord Mongoose
Posts: 8849
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:58 am
Location: Kettering UK
Contact:

Are the Minbari as bad as the Dilgar?

Postby Greg Smith » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:18 pm

The Minbari have waged two genocidal wars (and were successful in exterminating the Garmak Empire) as well as conquering Iklath by destroying their entire navy and subjugating the populace.

The Minbari wage war out of vengeance. The Dilgar did it out of need. Who is worse?


Is the only real difference between the Dilgar and the Minbari, that the Minbari won?
"Bringer of Warmth, Carrier of Carrion, Prophet of Dilgarness, Speaker of all thing Llort!"

Part-time Narn.

ACTA playtester
Victorious Grand Admiral
User avatar
frobisher
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2046
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:41 pm
Location: Glenfarg, SCOTLAND

Postby frobisher » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:48 pm

I think the crucial difference is that the Minbari aren't overtly agressive. The war is waged, and once won - that's it. The Dilgar would likley size up another target and go for it as well...

Also, there's the whole "attrocity" thing...
Paddy Sinclair

Us Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead...
Natxomann
Mongoose
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:15 pm

Postby Natxomann » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:25 pm

The genocide of the Garmak by the Minbari was an invention from Mongoose , and probably as accurate as the rest of the Minbari history section...


Now , talking seriously , and before anyone from Mongoose gets offended , I should say that the "Garmak affair" was taken from the Minbari history fluff developed years ago by Agents of gaming , that was both coherent and comprehensive .
Unfortunately (and please , I don't want to offend anyone here , but these are my thoughts , and this is a constructive criticism) , Mongoose decided to make the Minbari something that they were not in AoG games' fluff texts , a near demigods , resultant of extensive Vorlon genetics and Psychic manipulation , even contradicting canon facts in occasion , and making their culture too extreme , even to the point where all their wars are almost genocidal (in AoG Minbari history , the Minbari simply crushed the Garmak military , leaving them defenseless against the Centauri)
The impossible can be made , it only takes a little bit of time and effort .
Lt Commander Jan Helder .
User avatar
Greg Smith
Warlord Mongoose
Posts: 8849
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:58 am
Location: Kettering UK
Contact:

Postby Greg Smith » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:48 pm

Natxomann wrote: Mongoose decided to make the Minbari something that they were not in AoG games' fluff texts , a near demigods , resultant of extensive Vorlon genetics and Psychic manipulation , even contradicting canon facts in occasion , and making their culture too extreme , even to the point where all their wars are almost genocidal
The only canon war we see the the Minbari wage was genocidal (until the end). Surely that does make the Minbari extreme? Anything else would be deviation from canon.
"Bringer of Warmth, Carrier of Carrion, Prophet of Dilgarness, Speaker of all thing Llort!"

Part-time Narn.

ACTA playtester
Victorious Grand Admiral
James McMurray
Stoat
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Postby James McMurray » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:59 pm

Yeah. Responding to a single "ambush" with a genocidal war is a wee bit on the extreme side, no matter who was killed in the attack.
James McMurray
Stoat
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Postby James McMurray » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:01 pm

Also, while we only saw one Minbari war, in the prequel Londo was pretty clear to Eartforce military that if they screwed with the Minbari Earth might not survive. That seems to indicate a history of genocide or something close to it.
Natxomann
Mongoose
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:15 pm

Postby Natxomann » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:15 pm

... Or simply the fact that the Minbari society in general , and the Warrior caste in particular tend to react too aggressively against what they perceive as unwarranted attacks ...

BTW , the "ambush" , was perceived by the Minbari exactly as that , an unwarranted and utterly dishonorable aggression from some human warships , that attacked the Grey council ship in response to a gesture of respect , (and that is the caveat) killing in the process the beloved and highly respected leader of all the Minbari people .
Things went downhill from there , with the Warriors taking advantage of the conflict to earn glory and "easy" victories against the humans... who from the Minbari point of view , systematically acted with great dishonor , "killing" the Ranger's leader when he was sent to reach a peace agreement , waging guerrilla war in the colonies , ambushing Minbari forces , torturing Minbari prisoners to death...
The impossible can be made , it only takes a little bit of time and effort .
Lt Commander Jan Helder .
James McMurray
Stoat
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Postby James McMurray » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:30 pm

Well, I'm glad most folks consider that sort of genocidal response an extreme reaction, or the world (especially post 9/11) would be a much scarier place. :)
Natxomann
Mongoose
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:15 pm

Postby Natxomann » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:47 pm

I did not want to begin a political discussion here , but that example was something that i was tempted to use in my previous reply (please , remember that I do not try to offend anyone sensibilities).

Like the US people after the 9/11 , the Minbari felt as if they were attacked without reason , reacting with a war against those that they feel that have attacked them (and specially some of their most important symbols) without reason , so the Minbari reacted badly (they called it a Holy war , and we call it War against the terror , but think what would happen if the 9/11 terrorists decided to target the US congress during a house sesion , and the White House with the US president in it , instead of the Pentagon and the World trade Center) .

As with the war on terror , some people within the US Gov apparently (remember , I do not want to begin a political discussion here) decided to use the ongoing war for their own purposes (namely to gain access to some oil fields) ; exactly what a good part of the warrior caste did , to use the first war they were fighting in centuries to advance their objetives: to show the value of their caste to the rest of the Minbari people (gaining political and social support) , and to earn a little glory for themselves.
The impossible can be made , it only takes a little bit of time and effort .
Lt Commander Jan Helder .
James McMurray
Stoat
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Postby James McMurray » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:46 am

I think we can avoid a political discussion and still use the example. Whether you think that the US response to 9/11 is extreme or not, the situations are pretty similar, and genocide doesn't even look like anything near a valid response.
User avatar
frobisher
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2046
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:41 pm
Location: Glenfarg, SCOTLAND

Postby frobisher » Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:57 pm

Genocide is actually a stronger term than what the Minbari were trying to achieve. They were not out to kill every single human - they clearly did not do that on the colony worlds they came across on the way to Earth - they removed their ability to fight, and kept moving forwards.

Earth wasn't to know this, obviously, and they were not going to go down without a fight.

The Dilgar are referred to in a whole different light. Cruelty marks them out from the Minbari who were merely "ruthless". Populations clearly suffered horrible abuses under the Dilgar, but the deaths from the Minbari War are all given as combatants in the series.
Paddy Sinclair

Us Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead...
User avatar
Greg Smith
Warlord Mongoose
Posts: 8849
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:58 am
Location: Kettering UK
Contact:

Postby Greg Smith » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:05 pm

Genocide and the extinctinction of the human race is mentioned several times in 'In the Beginning' - including by and to Delenn. General Lefcourt says "unless we find a way to defeat the Minbari, the human race ends with the current generation." It is pretty clear that genocide was the Minbari's intention.
"Bringer of Warmth, Carrier of Carrion, Prophet of Dilgarness, Speaker of all thing Llort!"

Part-time Narn.

ACTA playtester
Victorious Grand Admiral
James McMurray
Stoat
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Postby James McMurray » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:12 pm

Greg beat me to it. The Minbari mentioned genocide, the humans mentioned it, and if memory serves me correctly even Londo mentioned it when giving his warnings.
Natxomann
Mongoose
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:15 pm

Postby Natxomann » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:36 pm

Yes , but the important thing in differencing between the Dilgar and the Minbos is the one mentioned by Frobisher , the Minbari were ruthless , but the Dilgar were extremelly cruel .
The Minbari reacted with extreme violence and ruthlessness against something they perceived as a deliberate and unwarranted attack , that made inmense damage to them (remember , Minbari leaders are usually revered by the vast majority of their society , and Dukhat was considered as their greatest leader since Valen) , while the Dilgar waged a war of conquest against weaker opponents , who after being conquered were sistematically enslaved and slaughtered with great cruelty .
In "to dream in the city of sorrows" Sinclair notes that most Minbari felt extremely ashamed for what they did to the humans during the war , but when we see Ja'Dur in "deathwarker" , she actually was full of pride for her crimes .
That doesn't mean that the Minbari weren't waging a genocidal war against the humans (they clearly were) , but that their motives and metods were vastly different (remember , the Wind Swords , that were sheltering Ja'Dur , bring their advanced bioweapons to the Grey council a a mean to end the war quickly , and the Minbari laeders considered them too horrible to be employed , thus delaying the end of the conflict... with the loss of more Minbari lives) .
The impossible can be made , it only takes a little bit of time and effort .
Lt Commander Jan Helder .
thedarkelf007
Mongoose
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:43 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

Postby thedarkelf007 » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:17 pm

There was also a reason they skipped a few colonies at the end, they wanted to take the homeworld, and they could afford to mop up on the way back to their space removing those they skipped on the way in.

Bascially they wanted to get the core before they had too much of a chance to escape.
-------
Martin

Longterm GM and loves the 2nd Ed B5 rules
User avatar
frobisher
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2046
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:41 pm
Location: Glenfarg, SCOTLAND

Postby frobisher » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:39 pm

Greg Smith wrote:Genocide and the extinctinction of the human race is mentioned several times in 'In the Beginning' - including by and to Delenn. General Lefcourt says "unless we find a way to defeat the Minbari, the human race ends with the current generation." It is pretty clear that genocide was the Minbari's intention.
Er no - it was humanity's perception that that was the goal. Imporant difference.

If "simple" genocide was their aim, they'd have nuked the colonies rather than pacify them. The very fact that they fought ground actions means they were trying to remove the ability to fight.
Paddy Sinclair

Us Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead...
User avatar
lastbesthope
Executive Mongoose
Posts: 19697
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Postby lastbesthope » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:51 pm

But there is more honour in facing your opponent in battle, than nuking them from space. Look at how dishonourably they viewed 'Starkiller's actions.

LBH
I'll live forever, heaven won't let me in and hell's afraid I'll take over!!!

Mongoose Accolades
User avatar
crucible_orc
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Postby crucible_orc » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:13 pm

whetehr they were out for completel annhiliation of the Human SPecies or not, hte importatn distinction between hte minbari and Dilgar is this:

The Minbari will simply kill you swiftly, and leave it at that.

THe dilgar with effectively torture you until you die. they will subject you to Medical, genetic, and a plethora of potentially excrutiating tests before you die. they appear to enjoy the slow painful deaths of their enemies.

And for teh record, they did not unanimously and completely decide that genocide was the option. The council was split and they turned to Student Who's Teacher and role model had just been killed. They also mentioned that the council(most Notably Delenn) wanted to stop it, but no longer could, since the Bloodlust had spread to the regular peopole in call the castes.
" I must kill it before it acquires Language Skills!"
-Londo Mollari
User avatar
frobisher
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2046
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:41 pm
Location: Glenfarg, SCOTLAND

Postby frobisher » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:21 pm

lastbesthope wrote:But there is more honour in facing your opponent in battle, than nuking them from space. Look at how dishonourably they viewed 'Starkiller's actions.
I was using "nuking" in its generic sense (not actual nukes necessarily).

There are plenty of ways to "clense" a planet from orbit with standard ship weapons - Molecular Disruptors being particularly adept at this role I seem to recall, just not very discriminating which ground forces have a chance to be...
Paddy Sinclair

Us Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead...
Gabriel_Luna
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:09 am

Postby Gabriel_Luna » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:05 pm

Also of note is that in the movie, the general said that the Minbari were fighting in a way consistent with their caste system by targeting warriors first. Other than Warrior pride at not wanting to "nuke" (general sense) the ground forces, the odds are good that on any colony there were civilians, which the Minbari planned to get to in good time, once the human "warrior caste" was taken care of.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests