Things We Like

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
Lord Jolly the Scribe
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Things We Like

Postby Lord Jolly the Scribe » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:55 pm

Lately, I have noticed that a lot of posts have been posted on what things need changed or what people don't like about this game. As a new GM, I first started playing this game thinking that it was taking an old system from a game of rules and math equations and making a fun, free-spirited adventure of swords, sorcery, and at times, debauchery. But lately I have felt that with the announcement of a second edition, every little fault and complaint has risen to the surface. It has disheartened me and I see now the honeymoon is over. :cry:

So help me out guys. Make me feel the spark of helpfulness again and the warmth of brotherhood in a game that kicks the old rules and regulations and restrictions in the jewel bag and awakens a world of fun and excitement. Post some stuff on this thread about the game you love and characters you met or funny stories you have encountered in the game. If you jst want to get on here and say I am an idiot and read into things wrong or just don't have anything helpful to add, then don't post anything. But I still feel warm and fuzzy inside ( :shock: ) when I think about the first time my new hero Vinnie D posted on one of my threads.

So thanks for all the help and hope to hear something soon. :D
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Postby Daz » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:27 pm

The lack of many of the things that annoy me the most about D&D.
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Postby slaughterj » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:31 pm

Daz wrote:The lack of many of the things that annoy me the most about D&D.
And there you go ;) Some examples are that armor is DR not AC (mechanical) and healing magic isn't rampant (genre).
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Re: Things We Like

Postby Trodax » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:17 pm

Well, first I have to apologise if you (and others) think I've been soiling this forum lately, since it was I who started many of those "This should be done differently in 2nd!!!"-threads. I really love Conan the RPG, and did not mean to come off as ranty at all. The reason I posted that stuff was that I really want Conan to be the coolest game it can be, and I personally think it would be a little bit cooler if it changed a couple of small mechanical things.

OK, anyway, so why do I love Conan? (Why do I love Conan the RPG, I mean; steely-thewed, sullen-eyed men from Cimmeria ain't exactly my type. :wink: ). Well here are some things:

* Awesome setting! Robert E Howard is my favorite writer and I love, love, love his Hyborian Age. Mongoose has with talented writers succeeded remarkably well at getting a feeling in all its supplements that really stays true to Howard. The setting is of course the absolutely biggest part of the game, and a huge selling point for me. I really don't have any complaints about how the setting has been handled.

* Making characters is fun! I really like the character classes, and also love the way multiclassing was handled in the game. From a gamey point of view, I just think it's really fun to stat up characters.

* Cool magic system! Corruption, powerful spells and no magic items; it's all good.

* Some other small bits: I really like a couple of other changes that was done to the d20 system; Dodge and Parry, armor gives you DR, etc.
Lord Jolly the Scribe wrote:It has disheartened me and I see now the honeymoon is over. :cry:
Sure, the honeymoon is over, but on the other hand your wife is getting a boob-job next summer... OK, that was a bad, bad, possibly offensive joke. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. :oops:
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Postby Sutek » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:33 pm

Honestly, I think that any bitching about what's wrong with Conan is reletive to how fantastic a game system varient it actually is. The problem is simply that Mongoose raised the bar so hig that we now expect perfection from them (lol). Seriously - I think that's true. We see an RPG done right (not that Wizards didn't set the stage, but MGP just fine tuned everything so well), adamant and truthful adherance to the source material, picking a source material to stick to and making it work properly, and taking the D20 OGL to the next level (which was never "modern" or "space", although that's where everyone else springboarded after the initial success of the system).

MGP to fantasy RPG straight to the originators and pushed it in thier face. I liked that attitude, too. It was as if to say "You think you're the top dog in fantasy role playing, but we've decided to take you to school on that assumption!" You salty blighters!! Stickin' it to the yanks!! (lol)

My disappointments are hugely overshadowed by the successes of the system, and the only other factor that enters into the equation other than us, the RPG audience, holding the Conan game under such scrutiny...I think a lot of people just don't get the mechanics and complain that they think it is bad or should be changed based on thier false assumptions.

Like Raven... :P
<...ducks...>
Last edited by Sutek on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Krushnak » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:45 pm

the setting is awesome. absolutely love REH's stories and also the lovecraftian influence with the monsters from the outer darkness.

the character classes are great. finally a real barbarian class unlike d@d's crummy wannabe berserker.(hackmaster has a pretty good barbarian class aswell).

the massive damage limit reduced to 20 while weapon damage being increased makes more a lot more deadly combats and generally more realistic combat.

armour being dr instead of ac and class based defense being split into dodge and parry.

that skillpoints from intelligence bonus can be spent on skills outside your class skill list. it just makes sooo much sense not to include it in all d20 games now.

favoured class being a bonus for that class and not a penalty for not taking it. also the ease of multiclassing.

the very cool magic system. also the restriction and danger of the few magic items that do exsist.

the fact they didnt include tables of cr and how much xp each monster is worth etc. really encourages a more narrative game style which the genre really needs and is a refreshing change from the metagaming of d@d.

really theres only a few minor things that i didnt really like, but they are easily solved by houserules.
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Postby Mongoose Gar » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:19 pm

Speaking as the person who's currently pencilled in to do to the overhaul, I'm very happy with all the 'what needs to be changed' and 'what's going to be changed' and 'omg this sux' threads - they help me do my job. If people didn't like the game, then we'd see far less activity on such threads. Most people only complain about something they're invested in.

As for specific changes - it's too earlier to say for definite what will be changed. Defensive Blast will be redone somehow. Sneak Attack will probably have its dice size changed based on context - you get D8s when stabbing someone who is surprised, D6s for attacking a blinded foe, D4s when you've just got someone flanked etc. Soldiers will probably get some sort of organisational power letting them rally other classes into a formation. Alchemy, poison and disease are all getting looked at. Temptress will probably move to the main book; all the different races of men may be moved out of the opening chapter so a prospective new player isn't mugged by too many conflicting options. Reputation will be simplified a bit. Combat moves may be scaled so that you'll be able to do lesser versions of the current ones at lower levels, and better ones at higher levels.

It'll still be class-based OGL. The changes will be probably be on a par with the changes made in Babylon 5 2nd Edition.

I'm very, very aware that the Conan game is a successful and popular line, so I'll be treading carefully with each change. My brief is to streamline the clunkier bits, correct any imbalances discovered in your campaigns, incorporate the best bits of any existing sourcebooks without overcomplicating the game, and generally spruce things up as best I can.
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Postby Sutek » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:44 pm

Fantastic update, Gar. However, I think I cracked the Defensive Blast code.

DB says it's a Free Action in which all of the Srocerer's PP are expended and he blasts out multiple d6 fire damage zapping anyone unfortunate enough to be within a 10' radius of him.

Okay.

Opp. Sacrifice is used anytime you "slay an enemy, whether by magic, melee or ranged attacks."

So, if you have to attack to Opp. Sacrifice, and DB is a Free Action rather than an attack, you can't do Opp. Sacrifice when you DB.

Did I just have an epiphany, or is it suddenly just really obvious to me that DB may not need drastic changing after all?

Nice mention of B5 2.0 too lest we all forget that the Mongoose gang has indeed done a second edition of a great game title once before already and was successful in doing so.
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Postby slaughterj » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:10 pm

Mongoose Gar wrote:Sneak Attack will probably have its dice size changed based on context - you get D8s when stabbing someone who is surprised, D6s for attacking a blinded foe, D4s when you've just got someone flanked etc.
Interesting, but please, whatever you do, keep things simple rather than overcomplicated. This seems like overcomplicating, which just means more rules to have to look up while playing the game, and Conan should be a game that runs fast and fun, so please avoid unnecessary complexities which hinder that.
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Postby Sutek » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:20 pm

Nerfing Sneak doesn't seem completely in order, but maybe adding dice if the target is surprised and subtracting dice if the target is merely Flanked would be easier. Maybe a die of Sneak damage for each person in a Flank position for the Thief, not including the thief. It'd be 1 die minumum, 3 max. Thieves could get a number of bonus sneak dice equal to thier STR bonus in a surprise round. That's easy too. Other Sneak opportunites would be standard as they are now.
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Postby Trodax » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:35 pm

Mongoose Gar wrote: Speaking as the person who's currently pencilled in to do to the overhaul, I'm very happy with all the 'what needs to be changed' and 'what's going to be changed' and 'omg this sux' threads - they help me do my job. If people didn't like the game, then we'd see far less activity on such threads. Most people only complain about something they're invested in.
Cool, that makes me feel better for starting those threads! :D
In fact, I'm gonna run off right now and start another one.... about armor! (Sorry Lord Jolly :wink: )
Sneak Attack will probably have its dice size changed based on context - you get D8s when stabbing someone who is surprised, D6s for attacking a blinded foe, D4s when you've just got someone flanked etc.
Now that's an interesting idea that I wouldn't have thought of. I think that can work nicely as a way to keep sneak attack dangerous at the start of combat, but keep it a little more restricted against flanked opponents (flanking has been the most common cause of sneak attacks in my game). I do agree with slaughterj in that streamlining rather than complicating is the way to go, though.
The changes will be probably be on a par with the changes made in Babylon 5 2nd Edition.
I know absolutely nothing about Babylon 5. Does anyone know how radical changes were made in Bab 5 2nd edition?
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Postby FailedSpotCheck » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:03 pm

With Conan, it could be worse. I know, I've seen it. :evil:
Conan is what D&D should have been back in the Golden Age (RIP 1979-1984).
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Postby Netherek » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:32 pm

I have to say there is so many good things to Conan that really I like it as is except a few features that need cleaning up or clarification.

Some things I'd like to note, Sneak Attack is fine if you only apply bonus damage after you penetrate armour and determine whether armour is damaged, that way sneak attacks don't have the dagger of doom against plate. I think we may need some limitation on what weapons can be used for Sneak Attacks.

I love the Sorcery rules except Rule of Defense, though I have preposed some options on various threads. I am going to play test them soon...

Why the change in Reputation? I never seen a problem there, and definate a better system than the generic one used in Star Wars and Modern.

Scaling of combat move seems interesting, perhaps design some that work with a single hand and weapon/shield styles would be nice. This is one of the most innovative features of Conan, it opens up options that would normally require a feat and sometimes feats are just to restrict due to the limit one can have.
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Postby Halfbat » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:09 pm

I'm really pleased to see Gar posting.... Conan d20 is one of the few d20 implementations which pulled d20 back from the perils of greyhawkiness. Sure, I still struggle with some of the D&D-ness, but on the whole it's pretty good.

Like? Armour, Dodge, the classes (possibly bar borderer but that's a different thread) and their feats/SQs, the magic system, corruption points, the flavour, of course, the way the rules have bene tinkered with to support that flavour.

What can change? Perhaps merging some of the skills so one covers many (e.g Athletics for Swim/jump/climb, Acrobatics for Tumble/Balance and others), but only so the characters can get to be a bit more heroic in their skill set...
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Postby Baduin » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:43 pm

Sneak attack should be usable only as a Finesse attack.

I always thought Scholars should get some version of Fear of the Unknown and death-curses instead of Defensive Blast.

To quote my earlier proposal:


Quote from "Hour of the Dragon"

"And the central provinces would not rise, even if they knew you lived. They would not dare. Sorcery defeated you at Valkia. Sorcery brought the news to Tarantia, for that very night men were shouting of it in the streets.

“A Nemedian priest loosed black magic again in the streets of Tarantia to slay men who still were loyal to your memory. I myself saw it. Armed men dropped like flies and died in the streets in a manner no man could understand. And the lean priest laughed and said: ‘I am only Altaro, only an acolyte of Orastes, who is but an acolyte of him who wears the veil; not mine is the power; the power but works through me.’”

“Well,” said Conan harshly, “is it not better to die honorably than to live in infamy? Is death worse than oppression, slavery and ultimate destruction?”

“When the fear of sorcery is in, reason is out,” replied Servius. "

A quote from "Men of the Black Circle"

"The crimson cloud balanced like a spinning top for an instant, whirling in a dazzling sheen on its point. Then without warning it was gone, vanished as a bubble vanishes when burst. There on the ledge stood four men. It was miraculous, incredible, impossible, yet it was true. They were not ghosts or phantoms. They were four tall men, with shaven, vulture-like heads, and black robes that hid their feet. Their hands were concealed by their wide sleeves. They stood in silence, their naked heads nodding slightly in unison. They were facing Khemsa, but behind them Conan felt his own blood turning to ice in his veins. Rising he backed stealthily away, until he felt the stallion’s shoulder trembling against his back, and the Devi crept into the shelter of his arm. There was no word spoken. Silence hung like a stifling pall."

Even Conan can feel terror when he meets high-level sorcerers.

To simulate the fear of sorcery, I would suggest the following rule:

Sorcerers cause a Terror of the Unknown save. The DC is 10 + 1/2 Scholar level + Charisma modifier or 1/2 of Corruption (whichever is higher). Like with other Terror of Unknown tests, if you make a save for a particular sorcerer, you will never be afraid of him. The Terror applies in the following cases:

1) When an enemy scholar casts a spell, or uses sorcerous tools or substances - serpent staffs, acheronian fire etc.

2) When a character knowingly attacks a scholar possessing sorcerous powers. If a sorcerer attacks someone with mundane weapons, he no longer causes terror. (If he has to use mundane weapons, he apparently doesn't possess any dangerous magic.) Such things as serpent -staffs don't count as mundane weapons. Dominating someone, forcing him to come to you and kneel, and then cutting his head off with a sword is also a sorcerous attack for the purpose of terror, although the sword can be completely nonmagical.

3) Lower-level sorcerers are afraid of higher-level ones.
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what I like about it.

Postby tofu » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:21 am

It is like writing your own novel.Hey, I have enjoyed Howard since age 8.
I wish Mongoose had done this sooner. Lots sooner.
It can be ironed out like a favorite shirt that just got worn too much.
Needs a hot press Iron and their good as new.
But , My complaints is it is too close in following d&d feat and skill wise.
they have their own uniqueness but still kinda reminds me of playing ad&d.

but, really that isnot all that bad.
I love the detail, the fact each kingdom has been written in depth.sad, no mention of the trade routes.
maybe those can be in 2nd ed.

Never quit man by far this is the best RPG I have ever played.
wish more in my area actually did tabletop versions of the Game. But around here only gameing groups play ad&d 3.5 like nothing elese was ever invented. Sigh
The Hyborian Era is, of course, the epoch of history from about 16,000 BC to 8,000 BC, a time in-between the Stone Age and the Bronze Age, which emerged after the sinking of Atlantis but was itself subsequently destroyed by another great catastrophe.
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Postby Mongoose Gar » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:07 am

I'm contemplating giving each style of Sorcery its own unique defensive ability. Hypnotism would get a terror check effect, Prestiwhatsit gets a "send everyone around me flying" and so forth. Basically, move away from the 'all sorcerers are walking bombs' situation we have currently.

This would probably be in addition to a stricter rule on when a Defensive Blast can be used.

Skill merging (Spot+Listen into Notice, Hide+Move Silently into Stealth etc) is a possibility, but it's not a certainty. It was an obvious move for Babylon 5, but a higher level of detail probably suits Conan better. We shall see.
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Postby Netherek » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:30 am

Mongoose Gar wrote:I'm contemplating giving each style of Sorcery its own unique defensive ability. Hypnotism would get a terror check effect, Prestiwhatsit gets a "send everyone around me flying" and so forth. Basically, move away from the 'all sorcerers are walking bombs' situation we have currently.

This would probably be in addition to a stricter rule on when a Defensive Blast can be used.
This is a step in the right direction. I've dropped it entirely, but a toned down version that is restricted in use would be more to the genre.
Mongoose Gar wrote:Skill merging (Spot+Listen into Notice, Hide+Move Silently into Stealth etc) is a possibility, but it's not a certainty. It was an obvious move for Babylon 5, but a higher level of detail probably suits Conan better. We shall see.
Not sure how I feel there, might improve things, might not.
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Postby VincentDarlage » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:48 am

Baduin wrote: To simulate the fear of sorcery, I would suggest the following rule:

Sorcerers cause a Terror of the Unknown save. The DC is 10 + 1/2 Scholar level + Charisma modifier or 1/2 of Corruption (whichever is higher). Like with other Terror of Unknown tests, if you make a save for a particular sorcerer, you will never be afraid of him.
I like that. Cool idea.
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Postby Krushnak » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:59 am

i really like the idea of skill merging, and actually i am already house ruling spot +listen and hide + move silently.

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