Ship Sizes Argh!

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Ship Sizes Argh!

Postby Abraxus » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:20 am

Here is a web site a friend found.. I'm sure some of you probably have seen it before.

My question is this. Are the sizes here accurate? Not so accurate? The author of the web site claims sizes are verified by a cgi guy on B5 named Tim Earls. This sizes of the ships are vastly different then the ones states in the book. For example, the Hyperion is stated as being a 1025 meters long!! that is substantialy larger then in the main book.

Thoughts?

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rainbow

Postby MarkJN » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:23 am

They're both wrong!

Tim Earl's qualification of having worked on the show cuts no ice - the CGI company during his period resorted to tricks such as resizing ships to make shuttles fit inside.

The main B5 rulebook is wrong due to the fact the size class chart also lists the approximate size in D&D terms of said size class. This breaks down in the Colossal+ region - the system used was borrowed (under open content rules) from the 'Dragonstar' campaign setting. Just ignore the actual 'footage' given.

Truth is, there is no given size for any of the ships. JMS just want ships to tell a story - he didn't need blueprints. Big ships are big, small ships are small and that's as good as it gets. If you're running a game the ships are the size you say they are. Fans like exact numbers, but when it comes down to it, they aren't really neccessary.

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Re: rainbow

Postby redlaco » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:03 pm

MarkJN wrote:Truth is, there is no given size for any of the ships. JMS just want ships to tell a story - he didn't need blueprints. Big ships are big, small ships are small and that's as good as it gets. If you're running a game the ships are the size you say they are. Fans like exact numbers, but when it comes down to it, they aren't really neccessary.
I totally agree with Mark. I don't need the exact length give or take an inch to play the game. The trick is, as long as I can describe the relative size to my players, who are not hardcore B5 or wargames fans anyway, they won't bother me with that level of detail. A rough approximation will do. But I can understand the B5 Wars players looking for blueprints, since a wargame is not the same...
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Postby Jal » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:30 pm

don`t bother looking for exact ship sizes, it`ll only make you head explode.

what with the shrinking and expanding whitestars (gotta love those cgi dudes :roll: ) to name but one.

sizes have been argued about for years and the arguments will continue for years to come.

stick with the class sizes and you`ll do ok. 8)
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Re: rainbow

Postby nitflegal » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:35 pm

They're both wrong!

Tim Earl's qualification of having worked on the show cuts no ice - the CGI company during his period resorted to tricks such as resizing ships to make shuttles fit inside.
Also note that things like the Omega length are retroactive to the movie A Call to Arms, where he had already set a length for the Excalibur and simply made the Omega length based on how they rendered them in the movie. The fact that the length doesn't match the renders in the five seasons of the show is apparently unimportant.
Truth is, there is no given size for any of the ships. JMS just want ships to tell a story - he didn't need blueprints. Big ships are big, small ships are small and that's as good as it gets. If you're running a game the ships are the size you say they are. Fans like exact numbers, but when it comes down to it, they aren't really neccessary.
Not entirely correct for the animators. Foundation imaging did have approximate lengths for the ships from the first 3 seasons, although many were based off of relative lengths against each other and Babylon 5 instead of specific lengths in meters. These were used to guide the animators. However, after talking with their animators a few times, they stated that they did not have a computer rendering set-up so that it would automatically scale the ships against each other. Rather, they had relative charts for reference and would animate them so they looked "about right". This was further messed with with the Sharlins flying about B5, JMS sent them instructions to make them larger and "more imposing". So, the Sharlins have always grown at times! This stuff was turned over to NDE after season 3, however it seems that it was not refered to and was apparently destroyed early on. Hence you start to see the Whitestar grow and the Sharlin shrink in season 4. The fluctuations in ship measurements became far more pronounced in season 4-5.

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Web Address of page with "Accurate?" sizes?

Postby Abraxus » Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:21 pm

here is the web site I forgot to mention when I first posted this page. What are your opinions on this guys page?

http://www.b5tech.com/science/scale/scale.htm


It seems well thought out... And his crew compliments are massive as well...but I do feel that the Mongoose crew compliments for the various ships are way too few. Ie: only 94 total crew on a Sharlin War Cruiser???? If you look at the windows, you can see a sense of scale..and how many decks the ship has. There'd be a lot of room for such a small crew.

And one other thing. Does anyone play with having the G'Quon having 12 fighters?


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Postby ShadowScout » Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:53 am

It seems well thought out...
Well, some of it is. That's the thing though - some of it isn't, and it's easy to swallow a lie wrappen in truth. Use with a grain of salt.

That said, their thoughts on the Sharlin, Nova and Vorlon Dreadnought are quite good... but don't ever let them snooker you into accepting Tim Earls overgrown WhiteStar! Or the strangely sized Drakh Cruiser... and the implications it's 3300 meters have for the Drakh mothership (come on - Six times as long as B5, yet goes down to a few Neutron laser hits in ItB???)

And here to get people more data to look at: Fabio's craft size comparisons, from a good CGI artist that did some work for AoG... and a lot of his stuff has found it's way into Mongoose publications already; chances are you have already looked at some of his CGI.
Though always remember - even though Fabio has some good ideas, his comparisons and conclusions aren't perfect either! :wink: :D Always use your own head to check if there isn't a better way to do things... (like the Drakh ship - it's faar easier to handle if you do two versions, one big -3500 meters or so-, sluggish, relatively unarmed one for "LoC" and an much smaller -around 750-900 meters; it looked smaller then the pursuing Omega in "War Zone"-, nimble and blue-beam armed warship for the scenes in Crusade...)

In the end it's an useless endevour to try and make sense of ship sizes using "empirical evidence" from the show or CGI-boy claims. The best way is to make up your own set of values that make sense with each other, and don't worry if an Sharlin is in fact 1600, 1055 or 1327½ meters long.
And his crew compliments are massive as well...but I do feel that the Mongoose crew compliments for the various ships are way too few. Ie: only 94 total crew on a Sharlin War Cruiser????
Keep in mind that these are the Minimum Crew Requirements needed to operate the ship. A warship will usually have several shifts, as well as even more damage control personell and of course marines and more pilots for their small craft...

For example, we have the Omega, Mongoose says 196, while we hear in S-4 that the Omegas around Mars have approximately 1000 humans each on board, while the Cerberus in Crusade was said to have around 350 or so IIRC.
So, I'd say Mongoose have given us the absolute minimum, the Crusade Cerberus had that twice as in "two shifts", and the Mars Omegas had full "battle-ready" compartments with three shifts, fighter pilots, and extra marines to repel boarders etc.
That's how you ought to use those values IMO!
And one other thing. Does anyone play with having the G'Quon having 12 fighters?
Of course. That's what AoG data says after all... and it makes sense, after all, where else would the narn fighters at Gorash come from?
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Interesting

Postby Abraxus » Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:01 pm

I have a few questions more:

"That said, their thoughts on the Sharlin, Nova and Vorlon Dreadnought are quite good... but don't ever let them snooker you into accepting Tim Earls overgrown WhiteStar! Or the strangely sized Drakh Cruiser... and the implications it's 3300 meters have for the Drakh mothership (come on - Six times as long as B5, yet goes down to a few Neutron laser hits in ItB???) "

Hmm...There's aproblem with your statement. B5, as stated in season 2 is 5 miles long, that is 8045 meters. The drak ship is 3300 meters long? That's only 2.05 miles long. So the ship is large, but not so vast.

I really like your idea on ship crews. Min crews are stated in book, and multiply it by 3 for full combat readyness. Does anyone use any special rules for this? Ie: If using min levels, then all rolls are penalized?

And as to the White Star. The guy doing this web site has the White Star at above 400 meters. What is the accepted size? I've seen episodes where an earthforce transport is way too big to dock and thus goes under the White Star to dock via docking ring. But in Season 5, during training episodes for Lenier, the White Star has a docking bay large enough to hold 4 or more fighters? Thoughts?

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Re: Interesting

Postby Enlightened Bystander » Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:37 pm

Abraxus wrote:I have a few questions more:

"That said, their thoughts on the Sharlin, Nova and Vorlon Dreadnought are quite good... but don't ever let them snooker you into accepting Tim Earls overgrown WhiteStar! Or the strangely sized Drakh Cruiser... and the implications it's 3300 meters have for the Drakh mothership (come on - Six times as long as B5, yet goes down to a few Neutron laser hits in ItB???) "

Hmm...There's aproblem with your statement. B5, as stated in season 2 is 5 miles long, that is 8045 meters. The drak ship is 3300 meters long? That's only 2.05 miles long. So the ship is large, but not so vast.
no, the Drakh Mothership would scale to six times B5 (I presume that there are good comparison shots between the cruiser and mothership in one of the Eps.
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Postby ShadowScout » Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:25 pm

no, the Drakh Mothership would scale to six times B5 (I presume that there are good comparison shots between the cruiser and mothership in one of the Eps.
Exactly. The Mothership is officially stated to be 59,69 Kilometers in length. Seven times B5 length of 8 km actually. And carries Drakh Cruisers -official length 3316 meters- like B5 does shuttles. Yet still gets blown up in "ItB" by just a few green NL beams... oh, and once by the Exy's "magic gun" in Crusade, with one single shot, but that gun is a special case anyway...
Still, something with about 300 times the volume of B5 Moving around just seems wrong somehow for anyone except the first ones. OK, maybe I could get moving, but not maneuvering... and there is NO explenation AT ALL why fully-grown starships ought to be carried by an mothership. Especially when we see the very same starships on extended-range missions without mothership before... after all, the idea about motherships is to bring ships that are too short-ranged to make it to the battle on their own - namely fighters and maybe some light combat craft such as the Drakh Raiders. But not starships big enough to go out on their own.
What's worse, in this case we have a case of contradicting CGI again - look at the "chase scene" in "War Zone", there you can see that the Drakh ship looks smaller then the pursuing Omega! Of course, that's something they ignored, keeping the 3316 meters, and scaling the mothership accordingly. Bad CGI guys. No biscuit!

I once made a B5W effort to get the Drakh into SCS form, and spent a lot of thought on this. My conclusion was that the best way was to assume that these drakhy hulls are in fact two vessels - a large, slow and virtually unarmed "Raider-Tender" seen in "LoC", and a small, fast and well-armed attack ship seen in "Crusade", who just look very similar while being of totally different sizes (like some other ships in the B5 show - Shadow battlecrabs -OK, these seem to grow as they age-, Vorlon Transports&Destroyers -ditto-...) Hey, it worked for StarTrek with their "klingon bird of prey" (making them the small B'Rel class scout ship we see in the movies yet letting them reuse the model as K'Vort class cruiser to threaten their new Galaxy class for TNG...)
And as to the White Star. The guy doing this web site has the White Star at above 400 meters. What is the accepted size?
Actually, there is no truly accepted size. The "official" size is these 475 meters, as established by Tim Earls in S-5. However, as the scenes in S-4, Fabio's comparisons and the WS diagrams in the otherwise rather questionable "B5 Security Guide" indicate, the WhiteStar was around 250 meters as late as S-4, and only doubled in size later so Earls could add a few fighters for Lennier to train as Ranger without having to think up a new mesh... and the real problem with that is that it for one makes the scenes in S-4 impossible as reconstructed by Fabio, for another contradicts the very speciality of the WhiteStar (remember, it has a jump engine, while "most ships this size don't", however, many ships of the 500 meter size Do have jump engines, from Centauri Vorchans to many AoG-made ships of the same size class), and third required to up-scale the size of some ships the WS danced with - like the Drakh "Raider-Tender" of "LoC", or the ShadowScout in "ShadowDancing" (which BtW is 130 meters in an official drawing hidden in the SecGuide art). And the error grows... see above.
I've seen episodes where an earthforce transport is way too big to dock and thus goes under the White Star to dock via docking ring. But in Season 5, during training episodes for Lenier, the White Star has a docking bay large enough to hold 4 or more fighters? Thoughts?

Stated before - the WhiteStar grew to twice it's size between the end of S-4 and the middle of S-5. And it's Tim Earls fault. And that's why I wouldn't trust Any statement endoursed by Tim Earls without first checking it with a deep scan and an vorlon inquisitor. (Well, actually that's only half the reason - the way these "Tech Manual" guys are using Tim Earls support as a justification to value their rectally aquired "facts" as more legit then stuff AoG had to have approved by WB and BP is the other. Not that everything in the Tech Manual is pulled from their neither regions, but a lot IS, unfortunately... like weaponry and defense systems on most of their ship infos, as well as several power systems... and that's why I always say "take with a BIG grain of salt everything you find there")
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Postby Elizar » Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:02 pm

ShadowScout wrote:In the end it's an useless endevour to try and make sense of ship sizes using "empirical evidence" from the show or CGI-boy claims. The best way is to make up your own set of values that make sense with each other, and don't worry if an Sharlin is in fact 1600, 1055 or 1327½ meters long.
Tim Earls charts are the canon approved one's from JMS, they stand. There are too many size errors in the show to get anything definative, so the charts remain the only thing that gives an out and out full explaination.
For example, we have the Omega, Mongoose says 196, while we hear in S-4 that the Omegas around Mars have approximately 1000 humans each on board, while the Cerberus in Crusade was said to have around 350 or so IIRC.
So, I'd say Mongoose have given us the absolute minimum, the Crusade Cerberus had that twice as in "two shifts", and the Mars Omegas had full "battle-ready" compartments with three shifts, fighter pilots, and extra marines to repel boarders etc.
That's how you ought to use those values IMO!
You are perhaps forgetting something. Mongoose is listing the crew, B5 is listing the compliment on board. That is very different. As the Mars figures also include a full compliment of GROPOS on board each one, hence the larger numbers of people. The Cerberus was not on wartime duty and thus did not require a full compliment of GROPOS.

Mongoose gives the crew but doesn't really touch on the compliment of GROPOS on board. The hyperion is a good exmaple though as it lists about 400 troops being able to stay on the Hyperion (pg119/153). But only need's 38 crewman. That's a large difference. So 132 crewman for the Omega and toughly 900 troops makes a lot of sense. They would obviously be given on board duties on toop of their trooper roles, Gideon I believe was a GROPOS who was aiding in repair. So although the figures change, the crew compliment remains the same.
Yet still gets blown up in "ItB" by just a few green NL beams... oh, and once by the Exy's "magic gun" in Crusade, with one single shot, but that gun is a special case anyway...
When does it get blown up in ITB? If you mean ACTA I don't think we atually see it, do we? Only really recall the tankers. It's hardly a magic gun, it took a good chunk out of a planet too, and was fired in hyperspace... ya know the volatile enviroment that increases damage. :)

There is an explaiantion as to why they have a mothership, they have no home remember. This would double up as their city. They conserve energy by keeping the fleet as one.

Erm the pursuing Omega was just that, pursuing... you can't get a size estimate based on a ship that is far behind them. The perspective was from the Omega, they were not side by side with the Omega dwarfing the Omega. The ship is much longer but is still small on the X and Y axis compared to the Omega, so looking from behind at a distance isn't a great way to judge size.

The jump engine thing is already torn to shreds by the twenty year old Liandra. So it seemed that comment was more at fault than the actual ship sizes.

Yes the whitestar grew but it now has its canon figure and can be taken as the such for the show. Otherwise it beocmes a real mess in accepting every figure that someone wants to think up for the day, the Tim Earls charts are canon so can be accepted as such over official or observed.
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Postby ShadowScout » Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:53 pm

Tim Earls charts are the canon approved one's from JMS, they stand. There are too many size errors in the show to get anything definative, so the charts remain the only thing that gives an out and out full explaination.
Oh, no, not another of Those guys. :?

For one thing, there are many other "approved by JMS" sizes floating around, Earls are only the latest (Sierra CD-Rom, AoG, ItF, SecManual...). And the latest versions aren't always the correct ones, just think of how much history was rewritten in human history...

For another, "approval by JMS" in No Way make something an "out and out full explaination", or "the truth"; at beast it makes that someting an "current official position". Positions can change, and this one did during the show times.

Then, Even things JMS himself wrote he later contradicted a few times; so his approval in No Way makes something holy writ.

Lastly, Never, EVER should a thinking human use "approved by -insert authority here-" as an excuse to shut down his or her brain, and deny or disallow any other thought and evidence. Humanity never had much luck with that sort of thing... never! Just read the history books...

And now an apology for all who may feel offended, but I just can't stand this "holy writ" kind of thinking any longer.

OK, now that I have that out of my system, let's see...

Ears sizes are mostly acceptable, and it's true that they are as canon as it gets in B5 - not that this means much, see above. Some of his sizes however contradict not only CGI scenes we saw, but also dialoge we heard and even plot devices like in "Matters of Honor" ("Oh, we can't jump because they can't know we can jump, since most ships this size can't and that's one more weapon in our arsenal...").
In such instances I tend to do some thinking... and my conclusions are that when Earls resized the WhiteStar for example, his "official size" reflects the one scene in S-5 against all of S-3 and S-4, and is therefore to be considered faulty; especially after Fabio has shown that it isn't even needed to resize the WS if you are a bit creative with your CGI.
You are perhaps forgetting something. Mongoose is listing the crew, B5 is listing the compliment on board. That is very different. As the Mars figures also include a full compliment of GROPOS on board each one, hence the larger numbers of people. The Cerberus was not on wartime duty and thus did not require a full compliment of GROPOS.
Isn't that what I basically said? See my post: Mongoose minimum crew, Cerberus standard "patrol" crew, Mars "wartime" crew including Marines/GROPOS and spares to cover combat losses.
Or who do you think adds to a warship's crew to get the total compliment? Paying passegers? :wink:
Mongoose gives the crew but doesn't really touch on the compliment of GROPOS on board. The hyperion is a good exmaple though as it lists about 400 troops being able to stay on the Hyperion (pg119/153). But only need's 38 crewman. That's a large difference. So 132 crewman for the Omega and toughly 900 troops makes a lot of sense.
Actually none at all - not unless you're talking an Omega on route to ferry GROPOS to a planetary combat zone.
However, 196 crew (EA-Factbook value), times two for two shifts is 392, which comes close enough to the Cerberus to work for me. 392, plus two shifts of 26 pilots for the fighters and shuttles makes 444, and add to that a third shift (minus one man for superstitious purposes of course) and 350 GROPOS or so and you reach the thousand we hear of around Mars. And while a one shift of crew and lots of GROPOS make little sense in a space battle, three shifts of crew and half that again in Marines for extra hands in damage control and for possible boarding actions does sound a lot like what I'd expect in a space battle.
Now, I'm no military expert, more like an armchair captain, but it does make sense for me. Maybe some people who have some military experience would care to comment? Do US carriers go out to war with just enough crew to man every station and stuffed full of army guys otherwise?
They would obviously be given on board duties on toop of their trooper roles, Gideon I believe was a GROPOS who was aiding in repair. So although the figures change, the crew compliment remains the same.
Possible, though not very likely - after all, how would a GROPOS get command of an Explorer starship a mere 9 years later... that's be like an former army grunt commanding an submarine - it might be possible, dunno, but it'd seem more likely he just wore GROPOS armor & equipment for some reason (I could speculate - that the Cerberus was a patrol cruiser, and he had been standing by as boarding party in case they need to inspect some vessel...)
Though of course it is possible - he could've been a GROPOS, and transfered to fleet after the Cerberus incident because he wanted the chance to find that strange ship again... and for his silence about what really happened, the Clarke government put him on a fast track through the ranks, and he maneged to keep on it through the civil war and the following reconstruction of earthforce... who but the great maker knows...
When does it get blown up in ITB? If you mean ACTA I don't think we atually see it, do we? Only really recall the tankers. It's hardly a magic gun, it took a good chunk out of a planet too, and was fired in hyperspace... ya know the volatile enviroment that increases damage.
Yup, my bad with the abbs. ACtA it was. And while I never saw any wreckage, the ship disappearing in a big fireball and not being seen agfain afterwards does point toward "blown away" after the three of four NL hits...
I won't say anything about Cursade though. Magic gun indeed... BtW, while it did fuse quite a bit of a planetary's surfect, it did less damage then the Particle Cannons of Earth's defense grid sats were said to have done had the fired in "Endgame", didn't it? Yet still got rid of the humungeous Mothership with a single shot (as if it ever fires more then that - recharge time indeed) Just some fuel to some flames...
There is an explaiantion as to why they have a mothership, they have no home remember. This would double up as their city. They conserve energy by keeping the fleet as one.
Oh, I'd take that as for why they have a mothership. But not to why they waste space and volume better used for city blocks, hydroponic farms and manifacturing centers on the oh-so-precious mothership with carrying warships that can fly on their own, jump on their own, etc. Or why they if they have such a nifty Mothership, fly it smack before the nose of the magic-gun wielding Excalibur... with most of the warships still on board...
And yes, I know the power of plot strikes again. I just wish it had used more subtle methods... but what am I thinking - that was Cursade after all... :wink: :P :? :(
Erm the pursuing Omega was just that, pursuing... you can't get a size estimate based on a ship that is far behind them. The perspective was from the Omega, they were not side by side with the Omega dwarfing the Omega. The ship is much longer but is still small on the X and Y axis compared to the Omega, so looking from behind at a distance isn't a great way to judge size.
Actually, IIRC there were a few shots from just in front of the Drakh ship too, and even then the Omega looked bigger. But I'll rewatch it as soon as I find my videos, which are still packed away right now (note to self - find the time to do the book and videocase, and unpack all those books and casettes from the moving boxes)
The jump engine thing is already torn to shreds by the twenty year old Liandra. So it seemed that comment was more at fault than the actual ship sizes.
Maybe. But then they shouldn't have used it. Actually they should have stuck with what they did instead of reinventing B5 fluff as the thought stuck them, but I supose you can't have everything... at least they didn't do either androids, cute kids that lived or magic particles of the week... and the only enjoyable "crisis on the holodeck" idea I ever saw...

Anyway, the "jumping Liandra" is one TV-movie, the small WS is two seasons, and a rather hefty plot device besides. I know where I will put more weight in my considerations...
Yes the whitestar grew but it now has its canon figure and can be taken as the such for the show. Otherwise it beocmes a real mess in accepting every figure that someone wants to think up for the day, the Tim Earls charts are canon so can be accepted as such over official or observed.
Again - not so.
Where they are OK I hjave no problem with them, but where they are not OK I reserve the right to object. Just because it's "canon" doesn't make a mistake less a mistake.
And that's why I advocate taking these sizes with a grain of salt and Think about where they came from and what follwing the current canon size as opposed to the former canon size really means. (And of course to take everything else Mr.Early says with five big grains of salt, as he has been known to cloak his personal opinion into the mantle of authority he didn't turn in when his spell as B5 CGI guy ended) Know what it means, know where it came from, know what it contradicts and what it supports - and then make up your OWN mind on it, and on how you'll treat the info. I hate to say it, but Understanding IS a three-edged sword. Don't let anyone tell you his edge is the whole, even if it bears the JMS stamp of approval. And question everything. And make up your own mind as to what you want in the quest for workable size figures for B5.

If you want to use those charts with all the implications they hold for your campaigns - sure, go ahead. But don't be surprised if you stumble over the cracks in B5 continuity while trying to stay with the show, as then your figures will match only the latest few episodes and a TV movie or two.

Or you can go with the show as seen, and work out everything from there - then you will have the mess you fear, with contradicting values equally valid.

Me, I'm gonna say right from the start that I'll prefer logical to canon values, and that I'm gonna ignore anything not making sense in any of my campaigns. And since I say that up front, I can just point to it later on as an excuse to dismiss things like someone printing out Earls charts rule-lawyering with them. And then I'm gonna do some thinking, and choose those stats most workable to come close to every or at least almost every scene, and think up some explenations to cover up the cracks. More work, sure, but more fun too, and it gives a better end result for a campaign.

So what if the Sharlins behind B5 look two miles tall in a few shots. So what if the WS is said to be half as big as an Hyperion cruiser by Earls.
I'll go with what works for me, and I will encourage other people to choose for themselves what they want instead of what some authority or parent figures tell them to choose... why do you think I choose my handle in the first place, all that years ago? :wink: :P
And of course I'll strive to give them as much information to make the best choice for themselves.
And of course all my information is colored by the choices I made and the values I hold dear.

So what - find some thought out arguments against it, and give them to people. But don't try to stop the discussion with an argument as "The Great Maker Sayeth Thou Shalt Not Question The Divine Size Charts Brought Onto Ye By His Exalted Prophet Tim Earls". Especially not when I'm present! :P :D :twisted:
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A question for Shadow Scout

Postby Abraxus » Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:35 pm

Then I have to ask you Shadowscout, what numbers do you subscribe to? How big do you think the Sharlin is, and the White Star?

Do you have a Master List for your games or just a list you use? I'd like to see it if possible.

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Postby El Cid » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:02 am

As far as I'm concerned there are few instances (like whe the White Star crashes sideways into the hanger bay of the Omega or when the fighters leave the hanger) where we get really good dimention checks.

A lot of the apparent differences IMHO could be attributed to distance between the viewer and the objects in question.

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Postby Enlightened Bystander » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:48 am

El Cid wrote:As far as I'm concerned there are few instances (like whe the White Star crashes sideways into the hanger bay of the Omega or when the fighters leave the hanger) where we get really good dimention checks.
aah, but here is the crux of the argument. These two White star sizes are wildly different (I believe that the impact one works out as about 250m, whilst the fihter one is about 475m!)
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Postby ShadowScout » Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:25 pm

Then I have to ask you Shadowscout, what numbers do you subscribe to? How big do you think the Sharlin is, and the White Star?
Sharlin - 1600 meters (nothing important that really contradicts the "canon" size)
WhiteStar - 250 meters (as the plot "small for jump-capable ship" contradicts the last modified "canon" size, so I'm going with the one they had as "canon" before Earls messed it up)
Do you have a Master List for your games or just a list you use? I'd like to see it if possible.
Actually I had one... somewhere. I'll see if I can find it in my files (which are still a bit disorganized after a computer swap - awful if you have to make backups on several zip disks, but now at least that'll be a thing of the past as I finally got a CD-writer...), and post it here... of course, much of it is estimated, as there are no real figures for AoG-made ships...
aah, but here is the crux of the argument. These two White star sizes are wildly different (I believe that the impact one works out as about 250m, whilst the fihter one is about 475m!)
Exactly! And since the WS was only "blown up" in S-5 when they wanted/needed to save on the CGI budget and use the mesh for the Ranger Training Ship "Maria", well...
And since the "canon" size of 475 meters is rather big (almost as large as a Centauri Demos, almost half of a Hyperion Heavy Cruiser) I ahve a problem with it, as for one all prior CGI was made with the smaller size (though you don't see it that often, true), and more importantly the "small ship that still mounts a jump engine" was an important plot device. And that it becomes strange if the ship suddenly grows in size to something half as big as a cruiser, yet keeps the maneuvrebility and combat style of a small & fast gunship...
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Postby PottsBr » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:28 pm

Whitestars were clearly pretty small. Season 4 has a good shot for scale as it pairs it with a ship with a well defined length. In the battle for Proxima 3, one of the Whitestars is hit and goes into a tumble into the maw of the EAS Pollux. I'd have to go back and find the shot, but as I recall, the length of the Whitestar was just a little more than the width of the Pollux' bow. If it had hit lengthwise, it looked like it could almost have fit into the fighter bay.

Of course, that puts the Whitestar even smaller than the 250 meters.
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Postby Jal » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:47 pm

the size of the Whitestar varies depending on what is needed for the episode.

always remember what JMS said: "the Whitestar flies at the speed of the plot" :lol: :lol:

stick with the class sizes, that way you get to stay sane. :wink:
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Sane?!

Postby Traveller-61 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:54 pm

stick with the class sizes, that way you get to stay sane.
Sane, who ever said us rpg-ers were ever sane to begin with?! :twisted:

Seriously though I would echo the advice of Shadowscout and stick to what you think is right! It's your game after all :D

I got very confused after going through the CD, Security Manual, 1st edition B5W, not to mention the web, and all having different figures. Now I just take the ones that seem to make most sense compared to what I see on the screen (and a 250m Whitestar works for me! :) )

DW

PS: Shadowscout - I'd certainly like to see that list if you can find it! (Pretty please...)
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Postby ShadowScout » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:03 am

PS: Shadowscout - I'd certainly like to see that list if you can find it! (Pretty please...)
Well, it ain't on the main "B5 stuff" zip disk... so I most likely had it saved in another place (I'm absolutely sure I backed up everything...).
But tomorrow or saturday I should have enough time to go through every backup disk - the search function should let me find "ShipSizes.doc" easily enough - and copy the stuff to post it here.
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