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Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
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Balgin Stondraeg
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:49 pm

DuskFox wrote:
Balgin Stondraeg wrote:
toothill man wrote:how can you not be fond of dwarves :shock:
Racist! You, sir, have issues :p.
Shouldn't it be more like "verticalist" or "heightist" or something?
Nope, I'll get on to them later :p.
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Postby Sabbak » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:06 pm

toothill man wrote:how can you not be fond of dwarves :shock:
You mean those funny little bearded men stincking alcohol and cavern fungus? :P

Noooo, let's be serious: I don't DISLIKE dwarves.
I'm just not found of them. They appear in just EVERY fantasy RpG (even more than the Elves!!!) and are always the same kind of "cliché":
- bearded
- loving beer
- living underground
- found of axes and powder

It's just... how can I say that... hmmm... a bit boring at last...

That's it: I like them, I find them cool to play (I even play a dwarven private detective in Shadowrun) but I'm a bit bored of the cliché... :wink:

But to be fair I have to say that I am neither found of elves!!! :lol:
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Postby columbob » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:50 pm

Sabbak wrote: Noooo, let's be serious: I don't DISLIKE dwarves.
I'm just not found of them. They appear in just EVERY fantasy RpG (even more than the Elves!!!) and are always the same kind of "cliché":
- bearded
- loving beer
- living underground
- found of axes and powder
I can point out at least two worlds in which Dwarves break out of the mold:

Dark Sun, in which Dwarves are beardless and find body hair repulsive (although in ages past, their forebears were closer to the same D&D clichés). They don't really live underground all that much, and gun powder is pretty nonexistant.

In fact, in Dark Sun, most of the races have been turned head over heels, which is part of the reason why I love that world.

And secondly, the world of Terry Brooks' Shannara. Dwarfs shun the underground caves where they had been forced in centuries past, and love and nurture beautiful gardens in their towns. Although no RPG has been made of this world (yet), it's still a wonderful world, with its own clichés.
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The Wolf
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Postby The Wolf » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:12 pm

Dark Sun, now that's a world that needs a 3.5 edition remake!

----

There was also Red Steel which is a lot closer to the way I have done some of my Dwarves in the past, for one of my worlds. Where they were more at home on the deck of a ship, drinking a fine wine and wearing ostentatious 'Jack Sparrow' like outfits.

A lot of them kept the beards, but they usually trimmed them short or made sure they were immaculate in appearance.
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Balgin Stondraeg
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:26 pm

Sabbak wrote:They appear in just EVERY fantasy RpG (even more than the Elves!!!)
Um, Elder Scrolls anyone? Talk about a dwarfless world and the dwarfs that were there were elves! Now that's an insult if ever I heard one but it's still great stuff.

Incidentaly, back in the 80's there was a roleplaying game called No Elves. The adverts for it stated that it had all the usual fantasy stuff, orcs, dwarfs demons and no elves!. Can anyone ever remember this game? I never got to find out what it was like (but wish I had as specualting with fellow gamers as to what this game might've been like has produced some great conversations (especialy when the conversations are held in front of the more extreme egocentric elf obsessed players who believe that elves are some sort of nazi master race that must be worshipped by everyone else)).
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The Wolf
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Postby The Wolf » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:20 pm

I believe that was the tagline of the insanely popular: Talislanta.
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Balgin Stondraeg
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:19 pm

The Wolf wrote:Dark Sun, now that's a world that needs a 3.5 edition remake!
No! That would be almost as bad as a very bad thing. I've never ahd any good expeirneces with Dark Sun yet (just had to listen to various bunches of powergamers boast about how "rock hard their Dark Sun characters are" over and over again).
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:14 am

I never had any problems with my DS players, then again they knew the fact that if they didn't survive it wasn't me that killed them - t'was the world :)
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Postby DuskFox » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:10 am

I was always fond of Dark Sun. It leads to stereotypically badass characters, true, but it's an unusually harsh and unyielding environment. I played a Half-Giant in a Dark Sun campaign once because I was assured they were tough as nails, and I think I died in the first or second session of that campaign because I wasn't nearly tough enough to handle the setting (it was, by the by, completely my fault--I'd built up this image in my head of my character being unstoppable, and I was definitely stoppable). While DS characters are by and large tougher than your average D&D character, the setting is much harder in proportion to your average Forgotten Realms campaign.
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Postby toothill man » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:33 am

missed dark sun was busy playing CoC and then planescape which was cool 8)
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Balgin Stondraeg
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Postby Balgin Stondraeg » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:20 pm

You guys obviously havn't had to put up with boring people spending hours going on and on about how their dragon in Dark Sun is 21's level and has over 30 in every ability and.... all they do is boast about big numbers! There's no character in numbers. The character is in the character!

So I don't say that the setting was bad but that it attracted the kind of people who made it seem bad to the rest of us.

You know, the people who don't like to believe that numbers below 8 can exist on a character sheet. Well in that case why not call 8 1, 9 2 and so on? I'll tell you why, because they like the big numbers because it makes them feel like they've achieved something. It's all a bit silly really but the lowest number should always be 1 (that means you can start below 3rd level :p).
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Postby columbob » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:23 pm

The Wolf wrote:Dark Sun, now that's a world that needs a 3.5 edition remake!
There already is one. Check it out at www.athas.org. Lots of material, and it's the WOTC sanctioned official DS site.
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:13 pm

Balgin Stondraeg wrote:You guys obviously havn't had to put up with boring people spending hours going on and on about how their dragon in Dark Sun is 21's level and has over 30 in every ability and.... all they do is boast about big numbers! There's no character in numbers. The character is in the character!

So I don't say that the setting was bad but that it attracted the kind of people who made it seem bad to the rest of us.

You know, the people who don't like to believe that numbers below 8 can exist on a character sheet. Well in that case why not call 8 1, 9 2 and so on? I'll tell you why, because they like the big numbers because it makes them feel like they've achieved something. It's all a bit silly really but the lowest number should always be 1 (that means you can start below 3rd level :p).
I see and know what you mean. I've sat through similar laborious explanations by certain players of the Forgotten Realms. After the fifth or six time of hearing how great their Drow Assassin was, who could take on Drizzt Do'Urden and win bare handed my brain kind of switched off.

18's, 16's, 19's and a few 20's...know exactly what you mean there m8.
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The Wolf
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:13 pm

columbob wrote:
The Wolf wrote:Dark Sun, now that's a world that needs a 3.5 edition remake!
There already is one. Check it out at www.athas.org. Lots of material, and it's the WOTC sanctioned official DS site.
Thanks :)
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Bon-Al Ironforge
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Postby Bon-Al Ironforge » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:17 pm

The Wolf wrote:
Balgin Stondraeg wrote:You guys obviously havn't had to put up with boring people spending hours going on and on about how their dragon in Dark Sun is 21's level and has over 30 in every ability and.... all they do is boast about big numbers! There's no character in numbers. The character is in the character!

So I don't say that the setting was bad but that it attracted the kind of people who made it seem bad to the rest of us.

You know, the people who don't like to believe that numbers below 8 can exist on a character sheet. Well in that case why not call 8 1, 9 2 and so on? I'll tell you why, because they like the big numbers because it makes them feel like they've achieved something. It's all a bit silly really but the lowest number should always be 1 (that means you can start below 3rd level :p).
I see and know what you mean. I've sat through similar laborious explanations by certain players of the Forgotten Realms. After the fifth or six time of hearing how great their Drow Assassin was, who could take on Drizzt Do'Urden and win bare handed my brain kind of switched off.

18's, 16's, 19's and a few 20's...know exactly what you mean there m8.
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The Wolf
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:08 pm

There are things Al, much worse than Drow in the dark pages of this world...like the Drow/Demon crossbreeds introduced in some of the other books.

Give me Lone Wolf anyday...or Conan...anything but Faerun these days.
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Postby DuskFox » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:10 pm

See, these are the reasons I homebrew my campaigns. I can't stand these sort of setting traits and stereotypes, so I just write them out of my games by not allowing them in the first place.

I dislike Drow, so the dark elves in my setting are nothing like them. I actually set up social flaws and boons depending on race, homeland, and career, and my group adheres to them because they make sense within the setting rather than because the rules say they have to. It just saves me time.
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:26 pm

Sounds a lot like me Dusk, and I have to say right now...both me and Hellion love that name :)

Anways -- I tend to do a lot of my own homebrew stuff, I have Dark Elves, but they're not called Drow or even Dark Elves for that matter. Hmm, I even have a Dwarf like race, but again they're not called Dwarves.

I'll be opening a thread soon with my example Bor Fort beginning story and then putting down some ideas, of course I won't be giving any secrets away and Mongoose's mods are free to pull the thread down if they think it will be doing just that.

I try to write anything I do non-traditional. I abhor stereotypes, but as a writer for D20 and other things - these are what make our bread and butter, so we have to grin and bear it most of the time.

I was faced with a very significant set of challenges when writing down Port Bax, how to make it interesting but not stereotypical while keeping to the flavour and feel of Joe's books.

All in all, a nightmare from start to end, but a good nightmare.
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Bon-Al Ironforge
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Postby Bon-Al Ironforge » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:32 pm

The Wolf wrote:There are things Al, much worse than Drow in the dark pages of this world...like the Drow/Demon crossbreeds introduced in some of the other books.

Give me Lone Wolf anyday...or Conan...anything but Faerun these days.
These kinds of things are OK as NPCs/monsters, but the problem with teh FR campaign is that everyone wants to be Drizzit. I am a firm believer in only the basic charactor classes for PCs, otherwise, it just gets silly
But these are just my htoughts
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Postby The Wolf » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:50 pm

They are thoughts that I share with you Al, don't worry about that. I used to run the FR but one of the reasons I stopped, exactly that. That and a friend of mine kept on coming up with Kai Warriors and Lords for inclusion in the game world.

Ironicly he quit the group a few years ago, then MGP created the Lone Wolf RPG...I had to laugh when he saw us in town one day and asked, so er, what do you guys do these days RP wise?

Oh nothing you'd really be interested in, honest mate. Just some Lone Wolf gaming and a bit of Star Wars.

His look was priceless.
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